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To: murphE
So we never really do know if anyone has ever been saved by baptism of desire, since we cannot know if they had perfect contrition.

I'm not sure what you're trying to prove here. Who on the thread was asserting that we know who is perfectly contrite for his sins? One could say the same thing of perfect contrition sufficing for the Sacrament of Penance; do you think that the Catholic doctrine on that matter ought to be doubted too? "Whence it is to be taught, that the penitence of a Christian, after his fall, is very different from that at (his) baptism; and that therein are included not only a cessation from sins, and a detestation thereof, or, a contrite and humble heart, but also the sacramental confession of the said sins,-at least in desire, and to be made in its season,-and sacerdotal absolution; and likewise satisfaction by fasts, alms, prayers, and the other pious exercises of a spiritual life; not indeed for the eternal punishment,-which is, together with the guilt, remitted, either by the sacrament, or by the desire of the sacrament ..." (Trent, Sess. VI, Decree on Justification, cap. xiv.)

not applicable to CA Guy's example

Baptizing "in the name of Jesus" (as opposed to in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit) is the simulation of a sacrament, because the form is defective.

so now you're worried about purgatory?

One common opinion is that the fires of purgatory are the same as those of Hell (St. Thomas teaches this, so do many others). St. Augustine says that the fire of purgatory is worse than any pain we could suffer in this world. I think that's something to worry about.

Never mind, I don't think this will ever be "clear" to me.

We should accept the teaching of the Church whether we can understand the reasons for it or not. In such a case, you should remind yourself of the teaching of St. Ignatius: "Thirteenth Rule. To be right in everything, we ought always to hold that the white which I see, is black, if the Hierarchical Church so decides it, believing that between Christ our Lord, the Bridegroom, and the Church, His Bride, there is the same Spirit which governs and directs us for the salvation of our souls. Because by the same Spirit and our Lord Who gave the ten Commandments, our holy Mother the Church is directed and governed."

71 posted on 10/25/2005 9:27:17 PM PDT by gbcdoj (Let us ask the Lord with tears, that according to his will so he would shew his mercy to us Jud 8:17)
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To: gbcdoj
I'm not sure what you're trying to prove here.

I'm not trying to prove anything. I'm just trying to have fun with you, hence the ";-)" - although you don't seem to be having any fun, =( so I'll stop now.

72 posted on 10/25/2005 9:34:52 PM PDT by murphE (These are days when the Christian is expected to praise every creed but his own. --G.K. Chesterton)
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