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To: Kolokotronis
In the ancient Liturgies of The Church, as is true today in the Divine Liturgies of Orthodoxy and most Eastern Rite Catholic Churches, the gifts are brought into the altar, the Holy of Holies by a priest or priests. Where does the procession of lay people carrying the gifts come from? To my eyes it looks terribly contrived a sort of "trendy".

Not contrived ... nor trendy. According to Catholic Encyclopedia ,

"The idea of this preparatory hallowing of the matter of the sacrifice by offering it to God is very old and forms an important element of every Christian liturgy. In the earliest period we have no evidence of anything but the bringing up of the bread and wine as they are wanted, before the Consecration prayer. Justin Martyr says: "Then bread and a cup of water and wine are brought to the president of the brethren" (I Apol., lxv, cf, lxvii). But soon the placing of the offering on the altar was accompanied by a prayer that God should accept these gifts, sanctify them, change them into the Body and Blood of his Son, and give us in return the grace of Communion. The Liturgy of "Apost. Const." VIII, says: "The deacons bring the gifts to the bishop at the altar . . . (xii, 3-4). This silent prayer is undoubtedly an Offertory prayer. But a later modification in the East brought about one of the characteristic differences between Eastern and Roman liturgies. All Eastern (and the old Gallican) rites prepare the gift before the Liturgy begins. This ceremony (proskomide) is especially elaborate in the Byzantine and its derived rites. It takes place on the credence table. The bread and wine are arranged, divided, incensed; and many prayers are said over them involving the idea of an offertory. The gifts are left there and are brought to the altar in solemn procession at the beginning of the Liturgy of the Faithful. This leaves no room for another offertory then. However, when they are placed on the altar prayers are said by the celebrant and a litany by the deacon which repeat the offertory idea. Rome alone has kept the older custom of one offertory and of preparing the gifts when they are wanted at the beginning of the Mass of the Faithful. Originally at this moment the people brought up bread and wine which were received by the deacons and placed by them on the altar. Traces of the custom remain at a papal Mass and at Milan."

If you consider that these are an offering from the people to the priest to be consecrated, it all makes perfect sense. In the Maronite Tradition, the following chant is sung during the procession:

I Myself am Bread of Life the Lord declared.
From on high I came to earth to give the world,
life from the Father.
Pure word without flesh and like a grain of the finest wheat.
Mary's womb became for me a fertile garden.
Now priests carry me aloft up to the altars.
Hallelulia! Accept our offerings.

We do, however, maintain a 'credence' table where Father places the offerings and says prayers over them before the liturgy begins. The offerings are kept 'veiled' until the actual procession. The transfer of the offerings goes from the people to the priest at the bottom of the bema and he carries them aloft up to the altar.

57 posted on 10/25/2005 3:57:39 PM PDT by NYer (“Socialism is the religion people get when they lose their religion")
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To: NYer; PetroniusMaximus; gbcdoj

"The bread and wine are arranged, divided, incensed; and many prayers are said over them involving the idea of an offertory. "

Wrong! There is nothing in the preparation of the bread and the wine which, at least the East, has ever been considered to be an offertory in the sense that we all use that term. The offertory is quite well defined within the Divine Liturgy of +John Chrysostoms. Frankly, the earliest writings, when they speak in any detail at all, always speak of the deacons or priests carrying the offerings in procession. I must say your quote from the Catholic Encyclopedia appears to me to be a post hoc propter hoc sort of spin to lend an air of ancient authority to a truly innovative practice. By the way, where did the lugging of a basket of money down with the bread and wine come from?

Personally, it makes no difference to me if in Latin Rite Churches lay people process up to the solea with the gifts. How the Latin Church conducts its liturgies, within certain parameters, is the business of the Latin Church. I do think its unfortunate to use that act to buttress a theological point, however.


58 posted on 10/25/2005 4:12:49 PM PDT by Kolokotronis (Christ is Risen, and you, o death, are annihilated!)
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To: NYer

Nice chant. We chant what is called the Cherubic Hymn during the Great Entrance:

"We who mystically represent the Cherubim sing the thrice holy hymn to the life giving Trinity. Let us set aside all the cares of life that we may receive the King of all invisibly escorted by the angelic hosts. Alleluia. Alleluia. Alleluia."

Here's a link to the Hymn in English along with a bit of the prayers just before, during and after the Hymn. By the way, not all priests have an accent like the one on the clip! :)

http://stjohnsbluepoint.org/sounds/CherubicHymn.MP3


67 posted on 10/25/2005 6:47:25 PM PDT by Kolokotronis (Christ is Risen, and you, o death, are annihilated!)
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