Posted on 10/24/2005 6:00:01 AM PDT by NYer
btt
He said what, exactly?
That Pius X mandated the Italianate/ecclesiastical pronunciation in Tra le Sollecitudini? Well, he couldn't have said that, unless his memory was fuzzy.
That Pius X mandated the Italianate/ecclesiastical pronunciation? If that is what he said, does he have a source document?
Mmm...seems VERY strange to me. I've never heard of this pronunciation, and IMHO it's exceedingly odd. I would rebel if my choir director had me sing it like this ;)
He's at work, and I'm at work, so I'll have to ask him next time I see him.
BTW, he's got a doctorate in Music from Juilliard, and his word's good enough for me. He has completely revitalized the music program in our church, and he has forgotten more about chant, medieval music, and Renaissance polyphony than I will ever know.
Yes, Your Holiness, Pope Pius I. ;-)
Claud,
I'll have to disagree with you on this...the pronunciation in question is in the Liber Usualis.
That is too cool!
My eight year old always starts us with the Latin Sign of the Cross for night prayers. We need to continue on.
I like "English from the Roots Up"
We have started with the words they already know to teach the Root words of Latin and Greek.
Next we move to "Latin's not so Hard".
I'm learning with them.
BUMP
This is the result of 40 years of a gross and deliberate disobedience on the part of the bishops.
Canon 249 of the Code of Canon Law:
The program for priestly formation is to make provision that the students are not only carefully taught their native language but also that they are well skilled in the Latin language...Does anyone want to make a wager on whether the bishops will come into compliance with this canon on their own accord?
The pertinent quotes, IMHO, are:
We are not here concerned with the delicate question of pronunciation in the Classical period, but only with the pronunciation of the living liturgical Latin of the Church. Our aim, in compliance with the wishes of his holiness Pius X, is to pronounce and speak Latin in the Roman Style so eminently suitable to Plainsong.and
H is pronounced K in the two words nihil (nee-keel) and mihi, (mee-kee) and their compounds. In ancient books these words are often written nichil and michi. In all other cases H is mute.
In Italian for "mihi" to be pronounced mee-chee, it would have to be written "mici" which is not how it was written in the ancient books according to the above quote.
AnAmericanMother, if your music director knows where Pius X expressed his wishes "to pronounce and speak Latin in the Roman Style," I would appreciate the information. In no way was I questioning his bona fides. While St. Pius X had a lot to say about sacred music in his Motu Proprio, that was not where he talked about Latin pronunciation.
Okay, but as a big primary-source guy, I'm wondering where the Liber came up with it. It is not a historical pronunciation in either Classical or Ecclesiastical Latin that I know of, although ELS's quote is very interesting in that regard. The question is..was "michi" a provincialism, or an authentic pronunciation of the classical period?
This is making me want to dig into my Italic historical linguistics again.
So I ain't sure what to make of this. Alls I know is, durnit, I ain't sayin' that dang k. ;)
It will divide the syllables, but you'll hardly know it's there! :-D
An ATM with instructions in Latin! . . . only in the Vatican . . . :-)
I'll check with the head honcho. I think Nicholas Montani says something about it in the front of the St. Gregory Hymnal, I'll look and see (TOLD you we were a traditional choir!)
It depends what the Liber means by "ancient texts." Given that they just finished saying they aren't concerned with "the Classical period," it may be that they mean ancient liturgical texts. In that case we are dealing with ecclesiastical Latin and "michi" would have been pronounced mee-kee.
If you decide to dig into Italic historical linguistics, let me know if you discover anything relevant to this discussion.
The next time I am at the Vatican, God willing, I have to find and use one of those ATM machines. When in Vatican City ...
Bumpus ad summum
If I find one, I'll send you a picture. Do they dispense euros or indulgences? ;-)
The page I linked to says that it is in the Vatican bank (wherever that is).
Ahh...that makes more sense, like Hanukkah/Chanukkah. It's a voiceless velar fricative. Which explains why I would never have heard it--it's probably pretty difficult to tell an h from a ch in a choir. The k though is a different matter, as it's a velar stop and the airflow is totally constricted. I still can't imagine choirs sing a full stop there.
Speaking of which, I've noticed that some American choirs tend sing the K in Kyrie as a long, loud fricative: "KKKKHHHHHHyrie". That's characteristic of American English, where initial /k/ is aspirated: (if you hold your hand in front of your lips when you say "cat" and "scat" you can usually feel a stronger puff of air for the first one). In Italian, that isn't done; inital /k/ is nonaspirated.
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