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To: magisterium; Corin Stormhands; Lord_Calvinus; ItsOurTimeNow

"I'm sure I can speak for many Catholics in saying that there is nothing discernably "Catholic" in TBAA. It is not only touchy-feely "feel-goodism," as someone on this thread said, it is also syncretistic and univeralist in the bargain."

Only the fact that it promotes praying to angels and the universalistic tendencies. It does seem as if Catholics have been claiming for years that anyone who follows their religion in good conscience will be saved.

The show seems to me to be distinctly Catholic as most Catholics I know behave and believe. If that is wrong, then most Catholics I know don't act Catholic.

"No thinking Catholic would consider the show to be anything more than sentimentalist trash, at least as it pertains to expositions of authentic Christianity."

I guess I don't know too many of those.

Colin.


54 posted on 10/22/2005 2:42:12 PM PDT by Colin MacTavish
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To: Colin MacTavish

Your observation about the astuteness of many American Catholics these days will go largely unchallenged by me. Two generations of poor or non-existent catechesis, in an ill-advised and misguided attempt to be "all things to all men" (in a watered-down way) has seen to that. Hence, I qualified my remark with the idea that "no thinking Catholic" would consider the show to be religiously beneficial. There are many ignorant Catholics AND ignorant Protestants in this country who, hungering for *something* spiritual but not recognizing true spirituality if it bit them in the rump, jump at this show and its ilk in a vain attempt to feel warm and fuzzy about themselves. Such people doubtless are responsible for the long run of the show. I do not speak for Catholics involved in this manner. I imagine you don't wish to speak for the many Protestants similarly encumbered by their share of 2Timothy 3:5-7.

As for your claim that Catholics believe that anyone following, in good conscience, their (erroneous) religious sensibilities will be saved: well, there are a few additional qualifiers to that!

First, we don't simply say that "anything goes" as you imply. One must be not only acting with a good conscience, that conscience also has to be "invincibly ignorant" of the truth. One cannot refuse to embrace the fulness of Christian truth because it is inconvenient, will bother the relatives, will get one fired, etc., ONCE ONE KNOWS the truth for what it is. God demands that we approach His truth on His terms. The early Church certainly had familiarity with this lesson! He demands no less today. Most people, Protestant and Catholic alike, are too lazy or too preoccupied with the affairs of day-to-day living in this life to ponder the importance of these matters. Will God thereby excuse them? I have no idea.

Second, Catholics still maintain that, for ANYONE to attain Heaven, being in a state of grace at the time of death is necessary. In our view, being in a sacramental system (Catholics and Orthodox alone share this outlook) is the surest means of availing oneself of the treasury of grace gained for us by Christ on the cross. Sanctifying grace is primarily dispensed by God through the Sacraments. A return to the state of grace after serious sin is achieved through the honest exercise of the Sacrament of Penance (confession). The life of grace is strengthened through worthy reception of the other Sacraments, as applicable to life's circumstances. Protestants do not avail themselves of these things. Neither do ALL of the non-Christians of the world. It is therefore difficult for us Catholics to understand how non-Catholics/Orthodox can be in a state of grace at the time of death, but we suppose that there may, indeed, be some in that very state.

Nevertheless, it is more probable that God can save people who are "sincerely trying" to follow Him on imperfect roads, despite the fact that they cannot avail themselves of the "ordinary" means of grace. As the saying goes: "God is the Author of the Sacraments, but He is not bound by them." Doubtless, He can infuse grace through extraordinary means, but we do not know what those means consist of, and we cannot know, in individual cases, the eternal destinies of anyone in these circumstances. In short, from our perspective, IF non-Catholics are saved, it is IN SPITE OF, not BECAUSE OF, their denominational confession in life. Given all of this, it is hard to imagine that "Catholicism" is guilty of universalism as you state.

I understand that you will chafe at all of this, but you wanted truth, not poetry, I imagine. You don't have to agree with it, but this is the state for things from our perspective. You asked for specifics here, and I gave them to you. In this vein, TBAA is *relentlessly* un-Catholic.



58 posted on 10/22/2005 5:48:42 PM PDT by magisterium
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