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To: NYer; Kolokotronis

You may worship in a Maronite Church, NYer, but you certainly haven't caught on to the Eastern phronema yet, have you?

Don't underestimate the influence of Gregory III. He is a Patriarch and, as such, carries much more clout than any Cardinal. He is determined to follow in the footsteps of his predecessor Maximos and he has the support of many Latin bishops.

This Pope may yet turn out to be the Pope of surprises that Martini predicted after his election. If I were you I would get on my knees!


5 posted on 10/09/2005 3:04:24 PM PDT by Tantumergo
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To: Tantumergo; Kolokotronis
The Melkites' influence far exceeds their numbers. But, for me, I have always appreciated the explanation for continence/celibacy given by Pope Siricius (from memory)...

In the Old Testament Times, Priests sacrificed once yearly. During that time of Temple Service they were bound to the rule of continence, i.e., they had to live apart from their wives and forego the marital act.

New Testaments Priests offer the Sacrifice daily, ergo, perpetual continence/celibacy.

It is my opinion all the inertia is in the direction of maintaining the Ancient Discipline of Continence/Celibacy which is of Apostolic Origins (SeeThe Apostolic Origins of Priestly Celibacy by Christian Cochini).

Is it possible a Melkite Patriarch is more influential than a know-it-all layman?

6 posted on 10/09/2005 3:44:16 PM PDT by bornacatholic
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To: Tantumergo; NYer

"Don't underestimate the influence of Gregory III. He is a Patriarch and, as such, carries much more clout than any Cardinal. He is determined to follow in the footsteps of his predecessor Maximos and he has the support of many Latin bishops."

Don't underestimate him indeed. Of all the Patriarchs and other heads of the Eastern Rite Churches, this is the fellow who has the closest ties with +Constantinople, +Antioch and +Alexandria. Melkite children attend Orthodox schools, they share "RCIA" teachers and classes with the Orthodox and this past Great Lent, the Melkites in at least parts of Lebanon celebrated Pascha not only on the Orthodox date, but in Orthodox Churches (and, as I understand it, vice versa). He has been outspoken in his comments at this Synod on the state of the Latin Church, and not in a favorable tone. He is the worthy successor of Maximos IV who, at Vatican II questioned why the Melkite Church should consider post-schism councils of the Latin Church truly Ecumenical and Gregory II who left Vatican I before it was over, not signing is assent to the declaration of Papal Infallibility. Rome later demanded that he sign, which he did, with the following addendum: "...all rights, privileges and prerogatives of the Patriarchs of the Eastern Churches being respected".

Times are changing in the Eastern Rite Churches. The days of fawning obedience to Rome and the Pope are near over. Recognition of this by the Synod and the Pope by listening to the East, taking to heart and implementing some of the adjustments called for by Eastern Rite hierarchs, especially in regards to the Eucharist, would be an intelligent and spiritually favorable course to follow. Reject them out of hand, expecting the Eastern Rite Christians to stand by while the liturgical and Eucharistic abuses which unfortunately abound in parts of the Latin Church continue and, well, I guess I wouldn't be surprised if we live to see Eastern Rite Catholics commemorating Orthodox hierarchs at Divine Liturgy


7 posted on 10/09/2005 3:45:18 PM PDT by Kolokotronis (Christ is Risen, and you, o death, are annihilated!)
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To: Tantumergo; Kolokotronis; RKBA Democrat; bornacatholic; redhead; sandyeggo
If I were you I would get on my knees!

Kneeling is a 'western' tradition. Standing, as done in the East, is the ultimate form of worship! (just ask my non-baptized, German father who attended one Maronite liturgy and swore he would never return :-).

That said, our bi-ritual (Maronite & Latin Rite) pastor insists that we kneel for the Consecration. Occasionally we will have visitors from Lebanon; they stand for the Consecration, out of respect. In the Latin Church, we stand for the reading of the Gospel ... out of respect. Please do not belittle standing vs kneeling; they each have great meaning, depending on which church one is attending.

You may worship in a Maronite Church, NYer, but you certainly haven't caught on to the Eastern phronema yet, have you?

First off ... let's clarify this term. According to my research, "phronema" means the completely self-sacrificial trust and faith in religious and ethical truths which derive not from human experience and wisdom, but from the voice of God through revelation, which is self-evident and does not undergo censure or doubt. This super-subjective origin of phronema is expressed in the New Testament with the well-known term 'mind of Christ', which is almost synonymous with phronema.

Before I continue, are we all agreed on this definition? How ironic that the ultra trads accused me of practicing the faith in a Novus Ordo liturgy when I should have been attending a TLM or SSPX service. Now I am handed similar accusations from catholics, some practicing in Eastern Churches and Orthodox, accusing the Maronite Church of lacking 'phronema'.

Of one thing I am certain, I prayed with a sincere heart to our Lord to deliver me from the weekly agony of attending mass in a RC parish where small liturgical abuses prevailed. I made my appeal in simplistic terms, asking our Lord to guide me to a holy man, reverent liturgy and welcoming community. I never discounted the possibility that this could be found in the RC Church and compiled a list of parishes within the local community. It was 'Sandyeggo' who recommended that I also include any Eastern Rite churches; so I recompiled the list to include the only two here in Albany - one Maronite and one Ukrainian.

Each week I attended Mass at a different RC parish. It was pretty much the same as the one I had attended the previous week at a different parish. Each week I submitted the same prayer to our Lord. Eventually, the first Eastern Catholic Church surfaced. It just happened to be the Maronite Church. I arrived one hour early (equipped with the wrong mass times) and spent one hour in prayer before our Lord present in the Tabernacle. That Sunday will forever stand out in my mind. On that day, an extraordinary grace was granted to this truly humble servant of God. It was never requested and totally unexpected. The following week, the Ukrainian Church was next on my list but it just happened to be my birthday and, reflecting back on that 'grace', I chose to return to the Maronite Church. Once again, I was overwhelmed by this beautiful and totally unexpected grace, which was repeated. When the following Sunday rolled around, I took out the list of local community parishes, reflected on the awesome grace extended to me and, like the total idiot that I am, understood that God, in His great mercy, had used these two visits to answer my prayer. Sometimes it takes a sledgehammer to grasp and recognize what it is that God is saying.

And so, on that 3rd Sunday following my first visit to the Maronite Church, I returned. Even then, I was still grappling with this message. That Sunday, there was no extraordinary grace extended but there was yet one more phenomenon. It was the final one, alerting me to the fact that "this" is where God wanted me.

So, if 'phronema' means what is described above, then the Maronite Church has given me the "self-sacrificial trust and faith in religious and ethical truths which derive not from human experience and wisdom, but from the voice of God."

At this juncture in my life and, following these extraordinary experiences, I have entrusted myself to Him and seek nothing more than to give back to a small community in great need. May His name be forever blessed and worshiped!

9 posted on 10/09/2005 4:58:15 PM PDT by NYer (“Socialism is the religion people get when they lose their religion")
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