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To: jrny; Aristotle721; NYer; Agrarian; kosta50
"I firmly believe in full liturgical participation. I have studied and mastered the Latin language, not just because I had to in High School, but because I believe it is necessary to know be better able to participate in ther Liturgy (and not rely on goofy translations)."

As a classics major in college (back in the days when whale oil for our lamps and wood for our fires were part of the room and board bill), I can appreciate your love for Latin and commend you on it, but.... Several years ago we got a new priest in our parish. He gradually moved the Divine Liturgy from almost totally Greek to almost totally English. Initially I was against it, but as time has gone on, I've developed a true love for the English. While I think its silly to say that anyone who had attended the Liturgy regularly didn't understand what it was about or what was said when it was all in Greek (it is in koine/Byzantine Greek, not modern Greek), I think its equally silly to think that everyone understood, for example, the daily services in Great Lent, which are rich in the theology of The Church. Fully participating in these devotions in English, understanding what the priest and cantor are saying as well as understanding my own responses has been quite wonderful. For us, the retention of some Greek is important because it reminds especially the converts who established our parish about 100 years ago, but beyond that, the vernacular has to be the language of choice if we truly believe lex orandi, lex credendi.

This is not to say that I object to Greek for us or Latin for you Western Catholics. I don't. Were it simply all about me, I'd be fine with the Greek or Latin were I a Latin Rite Christian. But the fact is it isn't all about me or even people like me. Since we switched to mostly English, our parish has been blessed with many, many converts who have added immeasurably to the social and spiritual dynamics of our parish. Indeed, our Metropolitan once said to us all, after a Divine Liturgy, that when he looked at us and learned the names and histories of the parishioners, he knew he was looking at the face of the future of Orthodoxy in this country.

At any rate, love your Latin, learn it well, but remember that for most people it always was and will continue to be, something of a barrier to full participation in the Liturgical life of the Church in the West.
18 posted on 10/07/2005 4:12:52 AM PDT by Kolokotronis (Christ is Risen, and you, o death, are annihilated!)
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To: Kolokotronis

I agree with your point that the vernacular is helpful, and with a good translation, it can be edifying. I would not object, as a matter of principle, to having the TLM celebrated in English. That would be a major improvement over the vernacular Novus Ordo.

But I was more stressing the point that American Society has some ingrained reluctance/abhorrence towards other lanuages. It's one thing that immigrants should be able to speak English, but many will go further and feel offended that said immigrants still speak their native languages in public. This attitude is what I don't like. I encourage biligualism and such. I wish I could speak Italian, but my grandparents did not pass that on to my parents. BTW, this is something I will probably rectify soon enough, but my Italian would be all book knowledge, and not quite the same as having learned it at home with family.

Back to the point though. I think in this day and age with many more people being "educated", that the ability to learn and participate in a dead language is easier than it ever has been. All it requires is a little effort. My wife, who had never been to a TLM before we met 3 years ago, now knows more Latin than the average TLM attendee, but not because I have given her any official instruction, but because she decided to put the little effort in to learn it by immersion at Mass. With the right priest in place, many could be encouraged to learn Latin (or Greek) this same way.

This is no way suggests that everyone should take formal instruction in said languages. The Latin used at Mass is very minimal compared to the entire scope of that language.


25 posted on 10/07/2005 5:57:32 AM PDT by jrny (Oremus pro Pontifice nostro Benedicto Decimo Sexto.)
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