Interview with an Exorcist: Fr. James Lebar talks about ‘The Exorcism of Emily Rose’

Editor's Note: This interview discusses key details of scenes crucial to the plot of 'Emily Rose,' which may spoil the movie for you if you haven't seen it yet.

GODSPY: Fr. Lebar, did you find the movie convincing?

Fr. James Lebar: Yes, I would say so. I thought the movie was good; it presented things fairly. I didn't see anything in the movie that didn't belong there.

How do you think it compared to The Exorcist?

That was an entirely different situation. This move didn't show all the grim and gory details ... it did show the attacks by the devil, but I think this was a more cerebral movie in that it was trying to find out how the girl died, and whether the priest was guilty of negligence.

I certainly wouldn't delve into an area I didn't know anything about. I wouldn't do something like that without consulting a psychiatrist.

One of the most commented on and controversial aspects of the movie was that Emily seemed to be a pious girl who hadn't done anything to open herself up to demonic attack. No dabbling in the Occult, no playing with Ouija boards. Can demonic possession happen without some sort of consent on the part of the person, can it happen against her free will?

Oh sure. The devil doesn't just test people who want to be tested. He wants to test everybody, especially people who aren't asking to be tempted.

In what ways does possession happen?

It can happen in one of two ways. A person can open the door to evil through crime, sin, unholy practices, or hatred of God. There are people who never participate in a satanic cult who make a pact with the devil, who give themselves over to evil.

The other way is when the devil wants someone for a specific purpose, and he initiates the possession to induce fear or despair in the person, or for some other reason we don't know about. These people don't realize what's happening, and are caught up in the whole thing without warning.

Another interesting twist in the movie was that the medication was blamed for blocking Emily's free will during the ritual, which is why the exorcism didn't work. Is that accurate?

Not being a psychiatrist, I don't know; On a certain level the free will of the individual is working no matter what. And within an exorcism itself, the devil does so many different things, that because of the stress and strain it would be hard to determine what the subject was really willing...

The movies implies that the possessed person has to consent to the exorcism.

What about the emphasis, during the exorcism in the movie, on finding out the demon's names. What's that about?

In Old Testament times it was always thought that if you knew the name of your adversary you had more control over them, so that it was always thought that it was important to know the names of the demons...

The climax of the movie is the scene where Emily has a vision of the Blessed Virgin Mary, who gives her the choice whether to continue her possession. She chooses to stay possessed, which eventually kills her. She martyrs herself as a witness to the reality of Satan. Is there a theological basis for this? Many have asked, "Why would God allow a pious young girl to suffer so much?"

To strengthen her spirituality. To strengthen her love of God. Look at someone like . The Nazis threw him in a concentration camp against his will, but while he was there a situation presented itself where he freely chose to plunge deeper into that horror, to suffer and die in place of someone else. That man he replaced lived to see Kolbe canonized as a saint, someone who gave good example, who was a witness to love's triumph over evil.

So we should see this as a version of the "dark night," the absence of God experienced by saints such as St. Therese, and even Mother Teresa?

Was it a bad thing that Kolbe was sent to the camp? Of course. Did it have another purpose? It certainly did. It made him a saint. What made him a saint was not going to the concentration camp—it was conforming to God's will and doing his priestly work inside the camp, in helping people as best he could. In retrospect, what he did inspired many others to go on.

You're saying that St. Maximilian can help us understand Emily Rose's situation—both were faithful believers who were subjected to evil against their wills, and both situations ended in their freely choosing to lay down their lives for God's sake?

So to ask why God would permit Emily to die this way is just part of the larger mystery of why God permits suffering in general?

Yes. God sees the greater good.

And the idea that Emily could be a saint—which is what the priest in the movie suggests—that's far-fetched?

No.

I guess I would say yes to that, although I might say it differently. We should also remember that when a person does their best to conform to the will of God they can put up with a lot, and it's not masochistic or self-destructive. God doesn't abandon the person who undergoes these things.

In the movie, Emily runs into a church, where she is subjected to a very physical, demonic attack. Her back arches way back, and she's in great distress. That surprised me...

I'm sure you've heard or read stories of people going into a Catholic church and having to leave because of the presence of the Blessed Sacrament, and other things as well. Let me give you an example.

Recently in another part of the country, a priest was working on a case where a woman who was being oppressed would meet him in a church. A point came when she didn't want to go into the church anymore—she'd try to go in, but she'd get agitated, as if there was a plexiglass shield at the entrance. So the next time the priest arranged for her to wait in the lobby while he signaled another priest to remove the Blessed Sacrament from the church. She didn't know this was happening. The priest then told her to try again, and she went in and sat down and they talked for an hour. That's an indication that the devil is involved because he doesn't want to be in the presence of the Blessed Sacrament.

In the movie I was surprised that she could be attacked right in front of the altar.

She went in the church for help. She didn't know that was going to happen to her.

Look, if the devil is possessing a person, who then gets into the presence of the Blessed Sacrament, he ain't happy about it. That would account for that reaction.

From the movie, I don't know whether Emily was a normal everyday person, whether she did something bad and got possessed, whether the devil went after her because she was good ... a lot of things follow from the answers to those questions. She knew enough to go into a church when she was attacked. The attacks before then could have been oppressions, not possessions. But at one point the devil possessed her so when she went into the church he had an adverse reaction of the worst kind.

So we shouldn't view it as "the demons are getting their way even in a church," but that they're having an adverse reaction to the Blessed Sacrament...

Yes. The devil doesn't want her there at all. He'd want to get her out of there.

What do you think about the media attention that movies like Emily Rose bring to the subject of demonic possession? Isn't there a danger that it will lead people to see demons where none exist?

One of the reasons I'm willing to do interviews like this is so that this phenomenon comes to the attention of people, Catholic and non-Catholic, and they will be informed that a: The devil exists, b: He tries to trouble people, and c: If he troubles people so much that he possesses them, they can be helped through exorcism.

The movie suggests that the reason for Emily Rose's martyrdom was to demonstrate to the world that the devil exists. You could say that, like the crucifixion, an apparent victory for Satan was turned to defeat. Does evidence of real demons lead people to believe in God?

Yes. I've heard of many cases where people who didn't have any strong belief in God, who became possessed or oppressed themselves, or knew someone who came into that condition, from that came belief in the true God.

I think he was talking about diabolic oppression/obsession which many saints have had to endure. From Fr. Amorth:

"What harm can the devil cause to the living? There are few books on the subject and a lack of common language. I will now attempt to define the words that I will use in this book.
Ordinary activity. This is "temptation", which is the most common activity of the demons, and it is directed against all men. When Jesus allowed Satan to tempt him, he accepted our human condition. I will not talk about this common diabolical endeavor, because the purpose of this book is to highlight Satan's "extraordinary activity", which can take place only if God so allows.
This second category can take six different forms:
1. External physical pain caused by Satan. We know of this from many lives of the saints. We know that Saint Paul of the Cross, the Curé of Ars, Padre Pio, and many others were beaten, flogged, and pummeled by demons. This external form of persecution does riot affect the soul; therefore with this type there has never been the need for an exorcism, only for prayers. Here I will dwell only on the other types of actions that directly affect exorcists.
2. Demonic possession. This occurs when Satan takes full possession of the body (not the soul); he speaks and acts without the knowledge or consent of the victim, who therefore is morally blameless. It is the gravest and most spectacular form of demonic afflictions, and it attracts the attention of producers of movies such as The Exorcist. According to the Ritual for exorcisms, some of the signs of possession include: speaking in tongues, extraordinary strength, and revealing the unknown. The man of Gerasa is a clear Gospel example of possession. To fix a set "model" for demonic possession would be a serious mistake; the affliction runs the gamut of symptoms and severity. For instance, I have exercised two totally possessed persons who remained perfectly still and silent during the exorcism. I could cite many other examples and as many different symptoms.
3. Diabolical oppression. Symptoms vary from a very serious to a mild illness. There is no possession, loss of consciousness, or involuntary action and word. The Bible gives us many examples of oppression; one of them is job, He was not possessed, but he lost his children, his goods, and his health. The bent woman and the deaf and dumb man who were cured by Jesus were not subject to total possession, but there was a demonic presence that caused physical discomfort. Saint Paul was most certainly not possessed by a demon, but he had a demonic oppression that caused an evil affliction: "And to keep me from being too elated by the abundance of revelations, a thorn was given me in the flesh, a messenger of Satan, to harass me" (2 Cor 12:7). There is no doubting the evil origin of the affliction.
While possessions are still relatively rare today, we exorcists run into a great number of people who have been struck by the devil in their health, jobs, or relationships. We must make it clear that to diagnose and heal an oppression-related illness is not any easier than to diagnose and cure a person afflicted by full possession. The degree of gravity may be different, but the difficulty of the diagnosis and the amount of time involved in healing are the same.
4. Diabolic obsession. Symptoms include sudden attacks, at times ongoing, of obsessive thoughts, sometimes even rationally absurd, but of such nature that the victim is unable to free himself Therefore the obsessed person lives in a perpetual state of prostration, desperation, and attempts at suicide. Almost always obsession influences dreams. Some people will say that this is evidence of mental illness, requiring the services of a psychiatrist or a psychologist. The same could be said of all other forms of demonic phenomena. Some symptoms, however, are so inconsistent with known illnesses that they point with certainty to their evil origins. Only an expert and well-trained eye can identify the crucial differences.
5. Diabolic infestation. Infestations affect houses, things, or animals. This book will only mention the topic. I merely want to state that I will never use this term when I refer to persons. I will always talk about possession, oppression, and obsession.
6. Diabolical subjugation, or dependence. People fall into this form of evil when they voluntarily submit to Satan. The two most common forms of dependence are the blood pact with the devil and the consecration to Satan.
How can we defend ourselves from all these evils? A strict interpretation of the Ritual confines the use of exorcisms only to instances of true possession. However, as I stated before, the current Ritual fails to address many occasions in which an exorcist diagnoses an evil influence. In all cases when there is no possession, the usual means to obtain grace should be sufficient. These means are prayer; the sacraments; almsgiving; leading a Christian life; pardoning offenses; and soliciting the aid of our Lord, Mary, the saints, and the angels. I will now say a few words about the angels. I gladly end this chapter on the devil, Christ's adversary, by speaking about the angels. They are our great allies. We owe them a great debt, and it is a mistake to mention them as rarely as we do. Every one of us has a guardian angel, most faithful of friends twenty-four hours a day, from conception to death. He unceasingly protects us, body and soul, while we, for the most part, never think about him. We also know that each nation has its particular guardian angel and, probably, every community and family, although we are not certain on the two last points. We know, however, that the angels are a multitude, and their desire to help us is much greater than Satan's desire to destroy us."

SOURCE

The whole article is very interesting.

I find the subject fascinating. I'm not sure if that's a good or bad thing. OTOH, our society can certainly benefit from belief in the devil, because he really exists.

Indeed he does but, as evidenced by some of the above comments, who really believes it? As Fr. Lebar notes:

One of the reasons I'm willing to do interviews like this is so that this phenomenon comes to the attention of people, Catholic and non-Catholic, and they will be informed that

a: The devil exists,
b: He tries to trouble people, and
c: If he troubles people so much that he possesses them, they can be helped through exorcism.

Many years ago, a group of catholic HS girls gathered at a friend's house. It was a hot summer day. The house had no a/c. The girl's mother was outside, hanging laundry, as the girls took out a ouija board and began playing with it. One of the girls had a 'spirit guide' named EOT and he answered their silly questions. Suddenly, he spelled out WARNING, several times. The girls giggled. The planchet stopped moving. The girls prodded it with more questions but the planchet would not budge. Curious as to what was going on, one of the girls asked: "Is anyone there?" The planchet immediately shot to YES. "Who are you?", the girl asked. The planchet moved rapidly from one letter to another, spelling out words. The girls called the letters out while another girl repeated the letter back and wrote it down. It took a while to decipher the flow of letters, especially since the planchet was going so fast. Amazingly, if one letter was missed, the planchet returned to it.

The girl transcribing the text suddenly gasped. She had deciphered the jumble of letters. It spelled out the spirit's different names. The final phrase was "..... but my preferred call me Beelzebub".

The girls didn't believe this; it was just a silly game, right? But the planchet spun back into motion. The spirit beckoned one of the girls to meet him. He promised anything she wanted "includinged". The girl transcribing the text laughed at that word. "Just goes to show this is a game; he can't even spell", she said. But then she looked at it again .... this wasn't one word, but two. The spirit promised her anything she wanted "including Ed". The girl was totally infatuated with a young man she had met several weeks earlier and was desperately trying to track him down through friends and acquaintances. His name had not come up at all that day ... until that moment. The girls now realized this was no game; they were dabbling with evil.

Just then, the mother who had been hanging laundry walked into the house. She commented that it was cold inside and put on a sweater. As she stepped outside to hang more wash, the family cat began to walk in, arched its back, hissed and ran back outside.

The girls posed another question, to "test" the spirit. They asked: "Who is the most wicked person in this house?" and the spirit named the most innocent child. That was more than ample proof. The child was sent to fetch a Rosary. This was dropped on the planchet. With that, the planchet flew across the room and into the open fireplace.

This is a true story. I was the girl transcribing the text.

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