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To: Rhadaghast
At what point will the Magistarium change the tradition of the church if Scripture contradicts it? Will it ever admit it was completely in error?

The Tradition of the Church and the Scripture come from the same source, God. Thus, they CANNOT contradict. If they appear to in your eyes, it is because you are misinterpreting something. I don't know what you have in mind here, but I have argued every conceivable Protestant argument, and have not found any case with merit yet.

Do you know you can still buy indulgences? What part of scripture is that from?

Without detailing your misunderstanding of indulgences, the Church has the authority to bind and loosen in Matthew's Gospel, Chapter 16 and 18. The Church has ALWAYS understood those verses as the ability to make such decisions for the sake of the entire Church. The concept of indulgences are Scriptural, as Martin Luther himself wrote before he left the Church.

The tradition of man is warned against in scripture

You are confusing terms. "Tradition of men", as Christ puts it, means something that keeps men from God. It is NOT a Tradition that is made up by man! Christ specifically refers to Korban, the practice of avoiding one's duty to their parents - a practice that kept a person from God so that he could keep access to his money. A tradition like the rosary, for example, does NOT keep a person from God, but focuses one's attention on Christ - this can hardly be considered a "tradition of men" in the sense Christ meant. A good example of "tradition of men" is Sola Fide. It is an invention of men (and not found in Scripture) that tends to deny the utility of love. This keeps man from God, since God is love.

B16 cannot be referring to the third person of the God head, B16 out ranks Him.

Utterly ridiculous. Which Pope EVER said he outranked God? Or even insinuated it? Please, brother.

Regards

45 posted on 10/06/2005 6:05:25 AM PDT by jo kus
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To: jo kus
Utterly ridiculous. Which Pope EVER said he outranked God? Or even insinuated it? Please, brother.

Concerning the extent of Papal dignity, authority, or dominion and infallibility.

(Quoadea quoeconcernunt papae dignitatem, auctoritatem, seu potestatem, et infallibilitatem.)

 

#1. "The Pope is of so great dignity and so exalted that he is not mere man, but as it were God, and the vicar of God."

(#1. "Papa tantae est dignitatis et cesitudinis, ut non sit simplex homo, sed quasi Deus, et Dei vicarius.")

#13. "Hence the Pope is crowned with a triple crown, as king of heaven and of earth and of the lower regions."

(#13. Hinc Papa triplici corona coronatur tanquam rex coeli, terre et infernoram.")

#18. "As to papal authority, the Pope is as it were God on earth, sole sovereign of all the faithful of Christ, chief king of kings, having a plentitude of unbroken power, over the earth, with supernatural absolute governing authority entrusted to him by the ominipotent God."

(#18. "Deveniendo ad Papae auctoritatem, Papa est quasi Deus in terra unicaus Christifidelium princeps, regum omnium rex maximus, plenitudinem potestatis continens, cui terreni simul, ac coelestis imperii gubernacula ab omnipotenti Deo credita sunt.")

#30. "The Pope is of so great authority and power, that he is able to modify, declare, or interpret even divine laws."

(#30. "Papa tantae est auctoritatis et potestatis, ut possit quoque leges divinas modificare, declarare, vel interpretari, ad num.")


74 posted on 10/06/2005 9:49:08 AM PDT by gscc
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To: jo kus
Please brother.

The first and foremost miss used (and totally destructive to this article and post in general) is the idea of binding and loosing. That means in essence that 'if the holy spirit directs a believe to do something that the church has not considered, it then can overrule the Holy Spirit for that person and tell them to stop.

This is giving veto power to 'a Man' on earth.

Oh but you say the holy spirit would never lead someone to go against the tradition or the word.

The protestants have, they have thrived, and they continue to follow as best they can the Holy Spirit, not the pope.

To paraphrase a famous quote:
"if it is not of God it will not continue, If it is of God you will not stop it."

Your pope and his cronies have for centuries disregarded the move of God in their practice and application of their supposed authority.

According to your very argument of binding and loosing, any pope could give credence to any doctrine of devil or God at any time.

The tradition of men is warned against in a warning by Jesus about a practice that is considered spiritual, but that is truly the attitude of religion. Saying this does not apply to the RCC is merely jousting at syntax.

There is no where in scripture that says we are to adhere to a single church government. What of the bureans? Why didn't Paul or Peter rebuke them for searching the scripture to see if what the apostles were teaching was true. The saints should have shown their authority and tradition there and then. They did not.

The practice of a central church as being the only church is nowhere supported in scripture.

Please brother; I see very little of the practice of the RCC as described in the catechism as having merit.

The interpretations and the documentation has been sifted and established to support the structure of the RCC. You assume that the structure of the apologetics of the Protestants is not sound or though out. It is and does continue to request that the RCC reform towards a more biblical stance. In Love.

Brother;

I will continue to agree that you are my brother, in Christ, as long as you offer me the same courtesy.

104 posted on 10/06/2005 11:18:40 AM PDT by Rhadaghast (Yeshua haMashiach hu Adonai Tsidkenu)
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