Posted on 10/03/2005 10:35:36 AM PDT by Stone Mountain
Top Cardinal Plays Down Priest Shortage
By NICOLE WINFIELD Associated Press Writer
October 03,2005 | VATICAN CITY -- A senior cardinal played down the shortage of clergymen that has left many churches without priests to celebrate Mass, saying at the start of a meeting of the world's bishops Monday that access to the Eucharist was a gift, not a right for Catholics.
But Cardinal Angelo Scola, the relator, or key moderator of the Synod of Bishops, hinted at some flexibility on another divisive issue facing the church: its ban on giving communion to divorcees who remarry without getting an annulment.
The comments by the Venice archbishop came in a lengthy introductory speech, delivered in Latin, to the bishops on the first day of the three-week meeting on the Eucharist, or Mass, during which Catholics receive what they believe is the body and blood of Christ.
His comments drew immediate, if nuanced, criticism from two bishops who appeared with Scola at a news conference -- a hint of the debates that will likely ensue behind closed doors during the synod.
Monsignor Luis Antonio Tagle of the Philippines said the synod had to "squarely" confront the priest shortage issue, recounting how on his first Sunday as an ordained priest he celebrated nine Masses -- and that that was the norm in his country.
"It is the priest who makes the Eucharist," he said.
He said he didn't have any answers to the problem, but many church reform groups have called on the synod to discuss the celibacy rule for priests, saying the priesthood would grow if men were allowed to marry.
Scola, however, repeated in his speech what the church regards as the benefits of a celibate priesthood and said the synod should talk about a better distribution of priests in the world.
© 2005 The Associated Press. All rights reserved.
Than it should be an easy task to post an authoritative source.
I guess I'm the first guy to show up looking for Albert Pujols on this thread.
If it were as well-documented as you say, then you would have supported your empty assertion with some evidence.
Basically, you're saying that we should take you as an undisputed authority without presenting your claim for evaluation.
Sorry, Charlie.
Your assertion is flat-out false.
If you think you can back it up, go ahead.
But until then, it's not documented at all.
The Council of Trent was convened in 1545 - after the middle ages, and more than a thousand years after celibacy became the standard discipline in the Western Church.
You know nothing of history.
In other words, you can't explain your thesis succinctly in your own words.
Apoligies. The Council of Nicea.
"and more than a thousand years after celibacy became the standard discipline in the Western Church."
That is incorrect.
Are you Roman Catholic?
"Are you Roman Catholic?"
Even better, Irish (Roman) Catholic.
As to scholarship on celibacy, look up Pope Gregory VII who reigned almost as many years before Trent as our time is after it. His "maiden name" was Hildebrand. He was a guest of Elinor of Aquitane. You can find her story in encyclopedias with ease.
I assume you mean The First Council of Nicaea in 325.
In other words you claim that there were "movements for celibacy as early as the First Council of Nicaea."
The Councils of Elvira between 295 and 302 already referred to celibacy as a long-established discipline in Spain, and of course, the leader of the movement for celibacy in the Church was St. Paul - as elaborated in his First Letter to the Corinthians, more than 250 years before First Nicaea.
And Tertullian speaks of the widespread discipline of celibacy in the Western Church in his Exhortatio in 220.
In 386 Pope Siricus in the (as recorded in the Jaffe Regesta) decreed that celibacy was now mandatory for all deacons, which shows that mandatory celibacy for priests and bishops was taken for granted in the Roman patriarchate, otherwise known as the Western Church, before 386.
That is incorrect.
No, it's not. 386 is more than 100 years before Trent.
No Irish (Roman) Catholic worthy of the description would be caught dead or alive (particularly not dead because Christ knows better) relying on the fishwrapper of the Kumbayas known as the National pseudoCatholic Reporter which publishes such trash as Rembert Weakland sees fit to write.
Dear WilliamWallance1999,
"Evidence please?"
Certainly. I'm using www.catholic-hierarchy.org as a source. You can look there for more exhaustive statistics, but here's a sampler. Sorry my formatting isn't better.
Latin America
Country Catholics Priests Catholics/Priests
Brazil 145.24 mill 16,733 ~8,600/1
Mexico 125.58 mill 14,578 ~8,600/1
Columbia 38.225 mill 7,773 ~4,900/1
Venezuela 25.487 mill 2,305 ~11,000/1
Argentina 34.208 mill 5,802 ~5,900/1
Peru 27.561 million 2,835 ~9,700/1
Ecuador 12.165 mill 1,891 ~6,400/1
Africa is generally better:
Congo 28.245 mill 4,002 ~7,000/1
Nigeria 19.37 mill 4,144 ~4,700/1
Uganda 10.787 mill 1,555 ~6,900/1
Angola 10.327 mill 600 ~17,000/1
Tanzania 10 million 2,143 ~4,700/1
Madagascar 4.6 mill 1,134 ~4,000/1
Burundi 4.431 mill 399 ~11,100/1
Cameroon 4.356 mill 1,395 ~3,100/1
South Africa 3.1 mill 1091 ~2,800/1
And, of course, you can't forget this one - it's one of the largest:
Phillipines 68.721 mill 6620 ~10,400/1
Some Third World countries do well, but they have relatively small Catholic populations:
India 16.694 mill 19,541 ~850/1
Indonesia 6.346 mill 3,021 ~2,100/1
Vietnam 5.539 mill 2,613 ~2,100/1
Now, US and Europe:
US 64.199 million 46,130 ~1,400/1
Belgium 7.839 mill 7,441 ~1,000/1
Britain 4.732 mill 5,708 ~800/1
France 44.957 mill 22,573 ~2,000/1
Germany 26.488 mill 18,614 ~1,400/1
Italy 57.630 mill 51,548 ~1,100/1
Spain 34.384 mill 27,982 ~1,200/1
Poland 35.108 mill 25,462 ~1,400/1
Overall, there are about 1.1 billion Catholics and about 500,000 priests, worldwide, yielding an overall worldwide ratio of about ~2,200/1.
There! A very incomplete list, but if you want to see just how representative is my sample, you're welcome to check for yourself at www.catholic-hierarchy.org.
sitetest
Yep, I have seen similar statistics too. I think the priest shortage theme is a smokescreen to justify attacks on celibacy for religious orders. This site has similar statistics.
http://www.beliefnet.com/story/164/story_16491_1.html
LOL! So you're actually claiming that (1) Google Scholar contains no ungermane fluff and (2) that running a search on Google constitutes an argument.
As someone who is skilled in research, I know that if you cite a primary source in a scholarly paper your cite will be well-received, while if you fail to cite and write "see Google", you'll be laughed at.
Mandatory celibacy has for clergy has no root in the Apostolic Tradition. The Apostle Paul himself, who wished that all men were as he was (1 Corinthians 7:7) namely celibate, also assumes in 1 Timothy 3 that a Bishop would be married. From the very beginning of the Church it was assumed that marriage itself was no impediment to ordination although the Church did, in fact, address the issue of who a Priest could marry (no actresses, etc.) and how many times (basically once) in its various canons on the subject. This is the Tradition of the Eastern Orthodox Churches to this day with the exception that we have canonically nullified married men from the episcopacy for practical but not scriptural or historc reasons.
But is that the central problem of the Catholic Church? I don't think so. Rather the Church has for too long allowed wolves in sheep's clothing into the fold and they have done much to destroy the faith of many. There are any number of clergy and monastics in the Church who have maintained celibacy but not the Faith.
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