Posted on 10/01/2005 3:47:21 PM PDT by Harrymehome
Here are a couple of more reasons for a Wednesday crucifixion/Sabbath resurrection. If you’re coming in late, read first “Christ died on a Wednesday” thread.
Eleventh reason:
The 6 of Sivan is Pentecost on the Hebrew calendar. In the year of Yeshuas crucifixion, 30 AD, Pentecost was on a Friday. The Holy Spirit appeared early that morning just before 9 AM.
Act 2:1
And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.
Act 2:15
For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day.
Yeshua had been with the apostles the previous 40 days.
Act 1:3
To whom also he shewed himself alive after his passion by many infallible proofs, being seen of them forty days, and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God:
Regressing from the day before Pentecost, that being the day he ascended (5th Sivan), we count back 5 days, plus 29 days for Iyar, plus another 6 days back inclusive from the 30th of Nisan, brings us to 25th Nisan as the 1st day, of the 40 days, when he arrived. The question arises “Where was he prior to the 25th of Nisan”? The answer is for 8 days he was in the heavenly sanctuary preparing for his priesthood.
Lev 8:33
And ye shall not go out of the door of the tabernacle of the congregation in seven days, until the days of your consecration be at an end: for seven days shall he consecrate you.
Lev 9:1
And it came to pass on the eighth day, that Moses called Aaron and his sons, and the elders of Israel;
Lev 9:4
Also a bullock and a ram for peace offerings, to sacrifice before the LORD; and a meat offering mingled with oil: for to day the LORD will appear unto you.
Heb 9:11
But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;
Heb 9:24
For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:
Still regressing, we count 8 days back from the 25th (inclusive, since that is the day he appeared), and that brings us to the Sunday (18th ), just after sundown of the First Sabbath (7th day weekly Sabbath). That Sunday was the 1st day of the 8 days of his absence on earth.
John 20:26
And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you.
Regressing still 2 more days from the 18th and we arrive to the 16th. The is the day of the wave sheaf offering which is the 1st day of the counting of the Omer until the 50th day of Pentecost.
Fits like socks on a rooster.
The next reason we must give credit to Jeremiah Jr for bringing it up.
The second temple was destroyed in 70 AD. We read: the Talmud records the following in Yoma 39b:
"During the last forty years before the destruction of the Temple the lot [‘For the Lord’] did not come up in the right hand; nor did the crimson-coloured strap become white; nor did the westernmost light [of the Menorah] shine; and the doors of the Hekal [Sanctuary] would open by themselves, until R. Johanan b. Zakkai rebuked them, saying: Hekal, Hekal, why wilt thou be the alarmer thyself? [meaning: predict thy own destruction] I know about thee that thou wilt be destroyed, for Zechariah ben Ido has already prophesied concerning thee: Open thy doors, O Lebanon, that the fire may devour thy cedars."
Yeshua was crucified on the Passover before this began to happen. The Encyclopedia Judaica states that Yeshua was crucified in 30 AD.
http://www.yashanet.com/library/temple/temples.htm
YHWH bless in your search for TRUTH
So.... Pentecost was on 50th day after passover, which was two days before Sunday.
Great! Now you've established that Jesus rose before morning on a Sunday, as has always been held by the Church, and that Sunday was two days after the passover. Which makes that passover on a Friday. Good Friday. WHere does Wednesday come in?
There has been one confusion: Jesus celebrated Passover on a Thursday Night, but was said to be put to death before the Pharisees celebrated Passover. This is because Jesus and his apostles celebrated Passover according to the Essene calendar, rejecting the Pharisees' calendar.
The count begins on the 16th Nisan as the 1st day. The count of the Omer is 7 weeks of days or 49 days. The next day is 6 Sivan and that is Pentecost.
You said:
Great! Now you've established that Jesus rose before morning on a Sunday, as has always been held by the Church,
You didn’t do as I advised. Go back and do a search for “Christ died on a Wednesday.” Read the whole thing, then we can discuss. Christ did not rise on Sunday.
YHWH bless you in your search for TRUTH
If Tuesday evening/Wednesday daytime was the 14th of Nisan, the day of preparation (John 19:31), and Wednesday evening/Thursday daytime was the High Sabbath (the First Sabbath of the Feast of Unleavened Bread) the 15th of Nisan. ......then Thursday evening/Friday daytime was the day the women bought and prepared the spices (Mark 16:1)(Luke 23:56). Remember they waited until the Sabbath was past before buying and then rested according to the Commandment after preparing the spices....so there was a non-Sabbath day in between the two Sabbaths.
Then that day, the 16th of Nisan, would have begun the counting of the Omer....the seven weeks plus one day of the Feast of Weeks, or Pentecost (Leviticus 23:15). See also The Historical Book of Josephus, "The Antiquities of the Jews" Book III Chapter X verse 5-6 for additional insight into this much misunderstood Festival of God. Most later Bible translations say count off seven Sabbaths, but the original Hebrew says seven weeks.
By counting 50 days from the 16th of Nisan which would have been.... crucifixion week, a Thursday evening/Friday daytime period you will end up with Pentacost on a Thursday evening/Friday daytime period also.
Now since we know by scripture that the Messiah said his only sign (Matthew12:39-40) would be the sign of Jonah....and we know that the resurrection day would have been the 17th of Nisan, Friday evening/Saturday daytime, we also now know that Sunday, the first day of the week was indeed the day that it became apparent that our Saviour had risen.... on the Sabbath....at sunset 72 hours after entombment (John 19:42).
BTW, to what church do you belong?
III John verse 9, "I wrote to the church , but Diotrephes, who loves to be first, will have nothing to do with us. So if I come, I will call attention to what he is doing, gossiping maliciously about us. Not satisfied with that, he refuses to welcome the brothers. He also stops those who want to do so and puts them out of the church."
In essence you see two different developing theologies probably not too many years after the beginning of the Church. There was much false doctrine entering the early Church (II John verse 7). There were false prophets and false teachers among them (II Peter 2:1). It is not difficult to see how some early Christians were led astray. That is the reason we should let the Bible itself do the interpreting and be wary of the traditions of men.
You call the 18 Nisan a Sunday. That means that 16 Nisan was a Friday. You correctly stated that the count begins on 16 Nisan.
If you start counting on a Friday, The 8th day is on a Friday, not the 7th; the 7th day is on a Thursday. The 49th day is on a Thursday. The 50th day is on... a Friday. Everything checks out.
You confusion is that the passover meal is celebrate on the eve of passover, because passover is from sunset to sunset, not midnight to midnight. On the other hand, the events of the Pentecost happened, "when the day of Pentecost had fully come." So the day of Pentecost had fully come 50 days after Passover, which was on Thursday night (even though the Pharisees celebrated it on Friday night).
>> It is not difficult to see how some early Christians were led astray. That is the reason we should let the Bible itself do the interpreting and be wary of the traditions of men. <<
Yes, that passage says that SOME Christians would be led astray. You're using it to support your argument that ALL Christians were led astray for the better part of 2000 years. THAT isn't possible.
More importantly, does God care what day of the week we celebrate the Resurrection? Is God going to say, "Ooops! You went to church on the wrong day, so it doesn't count"? In my opinion, lawyerly arguments don't carry much weight with the Law Giver.
I did disprove the argument you made on THIS page, and in fact used it to prove the opposite point. But, since you now refer me to your past arguments...The only "proof" I can make any sense of at all is #9.
Reason nine: You make your point that a high day isn't necessarily a Sabbath. But the high day at issue wasn't just any high day; it was a Sabbath! It was a Sabbath (friday night into saturday) that also happenned to be a Passover day, according to the Pharisees. (The Essenes celebrated their passover the day before.) Thus, the women came to tomb not between some sabbath that was a high day but was not a the sabbath and some sabbath which was a sabbath in the usual sense of the word; rather they came after a day which was both a high day (passover) and a sabbath in the only sense of the word (Saturday).
BUT DID CHRIST DIE ON A THURSDAY??
No. But that is an easier confusion to make than the notion he died on a wednesday.
The confusion is that the bible seems to indicate in some places that Christ was dead for three days, and in others that he was rose on the third day. Taen the way that the Thursday argument would suppose, this would have to be a contradiction.
If Christ died on a Thursday, and was dead for THREE DAYS, than he would be dead Thursday, Friday, and Saturday,and would rise on a Sunday... But that Sunday would be the FOURTH day. Rather, he died on the first day (Friday), and rose on the third day (Sunday).
So why does the bible say in other places that he rose again after three days? Because they are counting two different ways.
Physically, Jesus died on Friday, just before the Pharisee's passover. But he sacrificed himself -- he was torn down -- on a Thursday! The problem is that many Christians deny the very words of Christ because they aree too difficult to understand: This IS my body... This IS my blood. Jesus didn't say "This is like my body." He said "This IS my body."
The miracle of the death and resurrection of Jesus is that he offered himself up as a passover sacrifice, commanding his disciples to eat of his body and drink of his blood. That sacrifice was made on the feast of passover, which WAS a Thursday. But the miracle isn't just that Jesus sacrificed himself for us, it was that he was raised from the dead. The miracle is that although God demands from us our very lives, he will restore our lives in His divinity. To manifest the miracle of God restoring us in his divinity, Christ was raised from the dead.
Which of course meant that Christ had to be dead. But the fact that Jesus died on a Friday does not detract from the fact that Jesus offered his life up on a Thursday. (!)
Jesus himself referred to his followers as the "little Flock" (Luke 12:32).
Actually those passages say nothing of the sort. Those were my words. If I would have said most of the Christians would be led astray, would you have agreed with me?
If He was indifferent as to worship why did He establish His church Matt 16:18 and establish the New Covenant Sacrifice/Meal as the way God ought be worshipped?
>> If I would have said most of the Christians would be led astray, would you have agreed with me? <<
No, because the thesis of this thread demands the conclusion that ALL Christians throughout MOST of history were led astray, which is not possible.
Relax, I was only addressing the day of the week we celebrate Easter, not what people do once they get to church.
Not is not correct. The Jews always numbered the Sabbaths (First, Second, etc.) during the count of the 49 day count of the Omer. The Feast of Unleavened Bread does not qualify since it occurs before the count begins. Thus, the rest of your analyses is skewed off and I will hold off answering for now.
You said:
the original Hebrew says seven weeks.
The Hebrew language is much more explicit. Seven Sabbaths or seven weeks mean the same. The word Sabbath, according to Strong’s, could mean a 7 day, year, etc. period or a single of day of rest. An example is in
Lev 24:8 ….seven Sabbaths of years ….49 years..
You said:
By counting 50 days from the 16th of Nisan which would have been.... crucifixion week, a Thursday evening/Friday daytime period you will end up with Pentacost on a Thursday evening/Friday daytime period also.
That’s true. However, given the 6th Sivan as Pentecost, which is a Friday, try squeezing in the 40 days and 8 days into the 49 day count of the Omer, using a Sunday(18th) resurrection. Good luck.
You said:
Now since we know by scripture that the Messiah said his only sign (Matthew12:39-40) would be the sign of Jonah....and we know that the resurrection day would have been the 17th of Nisan, Friday evening/Saturday daytime, we also now know that Sunday, the first day of the week was indeed the day that it became apparent that our Saviour had risen.... on the Sabbath....at sunset 72 hours after entombment (John 19:42).
Again, you’re falling back on the usage of “the first day of the week”. That term is wrong, period. That’s why I’ve demonstrated 12 reasons why it is an incorrect phrase. If you try to use that “first day of the week” lie, then everything looks like trying to fit a round peg into a square hole.
YHWH bless you in your search for TRUTH
The count of the 8 days does not begin on Friday. It begins when Yeshua departed after sunset of 17th (18th night). The 18th is the first day of the 8 day count and the 8th day when he appeared again is the 25th on a Sunday. That same day is also the first day of the 40 days that he was with them before departing on the 49th day (5th Sivan) of the Omer count. The following day is not part of the Omer count and it is the 6th Sivan, Pentecost, and it fell on a Friday in 30 AD, the year Yeshua died.
You said:
You confusion is that the passover meal is celebrate on the eve of passover, because passover is from sunset to sunset, not midnight to midnight. On the other hand, the events of the Pentecost happened, "when the day of Pentecost had fully come." So the day of Pentecost had fully come 50 days after Passover, which was on Thursday night (even though the Pharisees celebrated it on Friday night).
Yeshua did not eat the customary, Biblical Passover meal, known as the Feast of Unleavened Bread. The reason being he had died several hours prior. He ate what we call the “last supper”. That was eaten after sunset of the 13th (14th night). He died at 3 PM 14th day of Nisan 30 AD.
YHWH bless you in your search for TRUTH.
For the reason that they haven’t been taught the Holy Word. They prefer listening to the false prophets on the pulpits who represent Mother Babylon and her daughters.
You ask:
BTW, to what church do you belong?
YHWH’s church are his follower’s in the Word. It’s not any particular church such as Catholic, Mormons, etc. I don’t belong to any of these for my previous response. I prefer studying on my own, and doing my own research. So far, YHWH has blessed me tremendously and I give him all the credit. I then try to reveal these findings to whomever YHWH directs.
YHWH bless you in your search for TRUTH
Yes it makes a big difference to YHWH which day you honor him and by not doing your labors. It’s specifically the 4th commandment of the 7th day Sabbath. Arguments like “I keep Sunday holy because that’s the day Christ resurrected” are not valid as is clearly demonstrated in the 12 reasons I’ve presented, not to mention the 4th commandment.
YHWH bless in your search for TRUTH
So you consider yourself a prophet crying out in the wildnerness?
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