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To: Kolokotronis
+John of Damascus said that man was indeed created with sanctifying grace, but even at that he was not created "in" union with God, that is to say in a state of theosis, but rather "for" union with God and thus in a state of potential theosis,

I am not sure I understand the distinction. "Potential" theosis? Paul says that the Second Adam restored what the first Adam lost in Romans 5, so that implies the first Adam before the lapse was beyond "potential" theosis, don't you think? Could it be that only with Christ's Atonement was the prodigy of Adam able to later come to divinization later? But what about pre-Fall?

What appears certain is that Adam was free from irregular desire (concupiscience), as that flows from sin, which hadn't existed yet. We also believe he was bodily immortal before the fall. Does the East agree?

In other words, its rather like we have an inherited, spiritually defective DNA, but we inherit neither his sin nor the guilt for it.

The West says the same thing, with a twist. First, Trent says Original sin is a true and proper sin, a guilt of sin - but does not attribute that guilt specifically to an event. It says original sin is the death of the soul - the absence of supernatural life (sanctifying grace). With Baptism, sanctifying grace is infused. Does the East agree? Original sin consists more of a deprivation of grace caused by the head of our race, and not a personal guilt from our own sin. I think it consists more of a lack of something than a positive accumulation of an evil.

Is there anything that I missed? I am not sure what the differences are yet on this subject - accept the pre-Fall state is treated by the East a bit differently.

Brother in Christ

41 posted on 10/01/2005 1:45:31 PM PDT by jo kus
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To: jo kus

"I am not sure I understand the distinction. "Potential" theosis? Paul says that the Second Adam restored what the first Adam lost in Romans 5, so that implies the first Adam before the lapse was beyond "potential" theosis, don't you think?"

No, I don't think so and neither did the Fathers. Adam was not created in a state of theosis but only with the then unobstructed ability to attain theosis or divinization. His sin cut him off from that divinization. Indeed as +Paul says, Christ restored to mankind, and to Adam himself as the Icon of the Resurrection shows, that pre-Fall potential.

"We also believe he was bodily immortal before the fall. Does the East agree?"

All bad things and states in the world, including physical death, stem from the sins of mankind. Adam's sin so distorted creatrion that physical decay and death entered the world. In part this is why Orthodoxy looks at sin as a sickness, not just of the soul, but also of the body. The Church is the hoppital for the healing of that sickness and its results.'

"The West says the same thing, with a twist. First, Trent says Original sin is a true and proper sin, a guilt of sin - but does not attribute that guilt specifically to an event. .... Does the East agree"

No. The sin of Adam was just that, Adam's sin. We carry no guilt for that sin.

"It says original sin is the death of the soul - the absence of supernatural life (sanctifying grace)."

Well, yes and no. Adam's sin brought death and sin into the world and we are subject to that. Sanctifying grace, as you put it, has no particular purpose other than to strengthen us and allow us to attain theosis, and in a perfect world, the theosis of all creation. Spiritual death is not the absence of supernatural life, but rather the inability, because of sin, to become like Christ and thus divinized.

"With Baptism, sanctifying grace is infused."

The Fathers say:

"For prisoners, baptism is ransom, forgiveness of debts, the death of sin, regeneration of the soul, a resplendent garment, an unbreakable seal, a chariot to heaven, a royal protector, a gift of adoption" +Basil the Great

"As we are lepers in sin, we are made clean from our old transgressions by means of the sacred water and the invocation of the Lord. We are thus spiritually regenerated as newborn infants, even as the Lord has declared: 'Except a man be born again through water and the Spirit, he shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.'" +Irenaeus of Lyons

"...from the instant we are baptized, grace is hidden in the depths of the intellect, concealing its presence even from the perception of the intellect itself. When someone begins, however, to love God with full resolve, then in a mysterious way, by means of intellectual perception, grace communicates something of its riches to his soul. Then, if he really wants to hold fast to this discovery, he joyfully starts longing to be rid of all his temporal goods, so as to acquire the field in which he has found the hidden treasure of life (cf. Matt. 13:44). This is because, when someone rids himself of all worldly riches, he discovers the place where the grace of God is hidden. For as the soul advances, divine grace more and more reveals itself to the intellect." St. Diadochos of Photiki

The East agrees.

"I think it consists more of a lack of something than a positive accumulation of an evil."

I disagree. The sin of Adam is definitely an evil, perhaps the greatest of all. That sin distorted all of creation down to us and the accumulation of sin, of evil, in history is why the world is as it is today.



42 posted on 10/01/2005 2:17:58 PM PDT by Kolokotronis (Christ is Risen, and you, o death, are annihilated!)
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