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To: jo kus
Certainly it was the heart attitudes which distinguished the two thieves at the crucifixion ... rather than their catalogue of works (which one would assume were rather criminal).

True, but be careful. The "good" thief ALSO did "works" (I prefer deeds, as people tend to take on Paul's definition of the word). He first believed that Christ was something more than a criminal. He came to repent of his sin. He realized he had done wrong and was being justly punished. He rebuked the other crinimal. Thus, he also has a "catalog" of deeds where he showed his love of Christ. All of this, of course, was because God was working inside of this man - and the man chose to cooperate with God, being pleasing to Him. Thus, in the end, the man was pleasing to God - and was declared righteous before God - because of his faith and deeds.


I agree with much that you say here.

I believe that the repentant thief on the cross is an excellent example of how one's faith ... leads to works of righteousness.

In such a short span of time, ... this thief produced such works, ... and, quite naturally (i.e. ... of his new nature), ... it appears (i.e. ... he wasn't coerced into his works).

And I note ... that his faith ... preceded these works. Without his belief that Jesus was Who He said that He was, ... none of these works would have come to pass ... and none of these works preceded his faith.

This accords with my belief that genuine faith and acceptance (i.e. in Who Jesus was/is ... and what He came to accomplish) ... will produce such works as those produced by the dying thief.

If he had continued to live with such faith ... he would have produced even more works for God.

This accords with Jesus' own statement ...
John 14:12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.
May we all do likewise.

276 posted on 09/29/2005 8:28:01 AM PDT by Quester (If you can't trust Jesus, ... who can you trust ?)
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To: Quester
This accords with my belief that genuine faith and acceptance (i.e. in Who Jesus was/is ... and what He came to accomplish) ... will produce such works as those produced by the dying thief.

First of all, how does one KNOW they have a "genuine faith"? This is something I don't understand about the concept - if someone can retroactively say "you never had 'saving' faith", how do you EVER know you have "saving" faith (whatever that means to us) until you die? Doesn't this defeat the whole purpose of Protestant salvation theology?

Second, why are you still trying to make faith and deeds separate? They BOTH come from God! Our works AND our faith BOTH come from God. It sounds like you are trying to place more "value" in faith and relagate works to something of secondary importance. Consider Abram. When was he justified in Gen. 22, for example? Was it when Abram was told by God to sacrifice his son? Was it after the first night? Was it when he reached the base of Mt. Moriah? Was it after he laid Isaac on the altar? No - it was when he was about to deal the death blow. Thus, his justification ABSOLUTELY DEPENDED on his pleasing God with BOTH, his faith in God (that He existed and would do what He promised, even if it required God to "raise Isaac from the dead") AND the act of love of God to carry out His Divine will. It is pointless to try to separate faith and deeds.

Thus, we are justified by faith and good deeds. Both come from God - and we cooperate with His promptings. Having faith, by the way, does not automatically yield deeds. Consider Paul's many times he exhorts Christians to act out of love. If faith inexorably led to meritorious works, there would have been no need of him reminding the various communities to love and avoid sin. "Works" do not automatically come from faith, although it is presumed that one has faith before he loves.

Remember. Both faith and works are from God.

Regards

283 posted on 09/29/2005 10:14:02 AM PDT by jo kus
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