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To: topcat54; Buggman; xzins; P-Marlowe; sanormal; blue-duncan; Corin Stormhands; Alex Murphy; ...
Here is another thought on the matter:

And the beat goes on....

120 posted on 09/20/2005 11:31:47 AM PDT by HarleyD
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To: HarleyD; topcat54; Buggman; xzins; jude24
Here is an extremely facinating article of how one author dates Revelation by other passages in scripture. I'll have to look more closely at these references but they are extremely interesting, IMO.


123 posted on 09/20/2005 11:50:17 AM PDT by HarleyD
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To: HarleyD; topcat54; xzins; P-Marlowe; sanormal; blue-duncan; Corin Stormhands; Alex Murphy
Well, hello! We were wondering where the rest of you were.

In regards to your article, several points should be noted:

First, the author does not include any specific quotes from early Church fathers backing up his assertion of an empty date. I, on the other hand, cited five specific references earlier in this thread supporting a Domitian date of authorship.

Second, the author writes, Cloud comings refer to swift judgment upon God's enemies (Ps. 18:7-15; Joel 2:1,2, Zeph. 1:14,15) in this case upon "they who pierced him." He conveniently fails to note that in Ac. 1:9-11, in which Messiah Yeshua is taken up in a clould, and two angels tell His followers, "This same Yeshua who is taken up from you into Heaven, will come in the way you have seen Him going into Heaven"--that is, He will return on the clouds, physically. I would further note that I believe that all of the passages that the author cites speak of that same literal Second Coming on the clouds of the sky, even as Yeshua Himself said He would return in Mt. 24:29-31.

He also fails to note Zec. 12:9-13:1, which says that when Israel looks on the Messiah that they pierced, they would mourn for Him and that they would thus be cleansed from their sin. Further, 12:9 tells us that on the day that this happens, "I will seek to destroy" not Jerusalem, but rather "all the nations that come against Jerusalem." That hardly seems to fit 70 AD, now does it?

Third, the author further demonstrates himself to be theologicaly anti-semetic when he writes the old cliche, The Jews were covenantally responsible for Christ's death: they sought His death, paid for His capture, brought false witness, convicted Him, turned Him over to Roman civil authority, and declared "His blood be on us and on our children." Yeshua died because of all of our sins--yours and mine--not because "the Jews" betrayed Him. Indeed, historically, those who were directly responsible were a small group of the leadership, primarily the Sadducees; the sin of the rest of the Jews was that they did not recognize the Messiah, trust in Him, and repent.

Yet, let us not forget that Yeshua Himself was a Jew of the Jews, that all of His first followers and Apostles were Jews, and that if it were not for the Jewish race none of us would have any salvation at all. God preserved a remnant, a firstfruits, and the day will come when He will save the rest of the nation, as it is written (cf. Rom. 11).

The author continues on in that vein for another paragraph, and most of its been refuted before. Since that does not contribute to the current discussion of the date of Revelation's authorship, I'll move on.

Fourth, the author writes, They suggest that persecution under the emperor Domitian was what is described in Revelation, but there is scant evidence that persecution of Christians by Domitian ever took place . . . This is a bold-faced lie, since Eusebius does indeed record such a persecution and notes that there were many others exiled besides Yochanan.

Fifth, when the author says, The author of Revelation, John, repeatedly alludes to a "great city" which is very likely a reference to Jerusalem and describes the temple as if it were still standing (Rev. 11:2). How can late date advocates make such claims of a city that history records was left in ruins in A.D. 70? does it not occur to him that Yochanan was recording a vision? In a prophetic vision, the Apostle could easily have beheld Jerusalem standing again and the Temple rebuilt, which the prophets have been consistant in predicting.

Indeed, this author, as many preterist do, speaks as if Yochanan came up with the Revelation on his own and needed recent memory of the city and Temple to do so, instead of having it, well, revealed to him by our Lord.

In other words, he argues in a circle and begs the question.

Sixth, he writes, Much has been made by late daters of a statement by Irenaeus in Against Heresies . . . again ignoring the fact that there are four other references to the Domitian exile.

Seventh, we've already examined and dismissed the Muraturian Canon and the Syriac translation; the first would have Revelation written in the 50s (obviously way off by anyone's estimation), assuming that it has not been misunderstood (which I think likely) and the latter is four to fourteen centuries too late for consideration. Epiphanaeus is likewise from the fourth century, which just goes to prove that the dating hijinks didn't occur until later.

Eighth, he cites Clement of Alexandria and Tertullian, but conveniently provides neither quotes nor citations that would enable us to check it out for ourselves.

So sorry, Harley, I appreciate the effort, but until you guys can actually provide actual quotations (or at least citations) by ante-Nicean fathers demonstrating that Yochanan was exiled to Patmos during Nero's reign, your preterist assumptions are still in trouble.

133 posted on 09/20/2005 12:47:05 PM PDT by Buggman (L'chaim b'Yeshua HaMashiach!)
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To: HarleyD

That entire post was shown erroneous by this thread.


167 posted on 09/20/2005 4:59:43 PM PDT by xzins (Retired Army Chaplain and Proud of It!)
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