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Not Replacement...Expansion!
CHAIM ("CHristians Announcing Israel's Messiah") ^ | Rev. Fred Klett

Posted on 09/17/2005 4:40:41 PM PDT by topcat54

Much fuss has been made in our Jewish evangelism circles regarding "replacement" theology, the idea that the church has "replaced" the Jewish people in the plan of God. Some have even accused all who think New Covenant believers are "Spiritual Israel" as being guilty of this "replacement theology", that is, of replacing the Jewish people with the church. Charges have been made that this idea of "Spiritual Israel" leads to anti-semitism.

Ironically my first exposure to the idea of all believers being spiritually Israel came about through involvement in "Messianic Judaism"! Way back in 1975 I attended a seminar by Manny Brotman, president of the "Messianic Jewish Movement International" on "How to Share the Messiah". In the seminar notes I read: "When a Gentile asks the Messiah into his heart and life, he is accepting the Jewish Messiah, the Jewish Bible, and the Jewish blood of atonement and could be considered a proselyte to biblical Judaism and a child of Abraham by faith!" Isn't this essentially a statement of the "Spiritual Israel" idea?

(Excerpt) Read more at chaim.org ...


TOPICS: Theology
KEYWORDS: covenanttheology
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God has not withdrawn His promises to the Jewish people. Rather, Paul clearly tells us, "no matter how many promises God has made, they are "yes" in Messiah" (2 Cor. 1:20). The New Covenant promise of eternal life through faith in Jesus is greater than any other blessing of God ever given. Indeed this is the fulfillment of the blessing promised to Abraham. The curse of death and separation from God is overturned through Messiah. Paul clearly says "He redeemed us in order that THE BLESSING PROMISED TO ABRAHAM MIGHT COME TO THE GENTILES through Messiah Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit" (Galatians 3:14). Only through Jesus can people truly come to the blessings of Abraham, life in the Spirit.

...

Some Jews who are for Jesus call their movement "Messianic Judaism". A few of these Jewish believers distinguish "Messianic Judaism" from "Christianity". I believe it would be better theology to distinguish between a culturally Jewish expression of New Covenant Judaism and a culturally Gentile expression of New Covenant Judaism. Our New Covenant faith is the true, Biblical Judaism.

Gentiles who come to believe in the Jewish Messiah convert to Biblical Judaism! Our New Covenant faith is the fulfillment of the Old Covenant faith. Christianity is New Covenant Judaism, the true religion of the Jewish people -- even if most Jewish people don't know it yet! The concept of "Spiritual Israel" is a Biblical doctrine. It doesn't mean "replacement"...it means EXPANSION! God has joined Gentiles to the true faith of Israel --He has expanded the nation spiritually!

1 posted on 09/17/2005 4:40:42 PM PDT by topcat54
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To: ItsOurTimeNow; HarleyD; suzyjaruki; nobdysfool; jkl1122; Calvinist_Dark_Lord; Dr. Eckleburg; ...
Reformed Eschatology Ping List (REPL)


2 posted on 09/17/2005 4:43:35 PM PDT by topcat54
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To: topcat54

Standard tactic of a great many people: Build a strawman, and knock it down. Thanks for taking the torch to this particular strawman.


3 posted on 09/18/2005 7:25:46 AM PDT by Calvinist_Dark_Lord (I have come here to kick @$$ and chew bubblegum...and I'm all outta bubblegum! ~Roddy Piper)
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To: topcat54

Thank you, Topcat, for your many wonderful threads on "escatology" because they are so much more than simple speculation about future events -- they articulate, based on clear Scripture, the meaning of true salvation by the grace of God through faith in Jesus Christ.


4 posted on 09/18/2005 9:22:04 AM PDT by Dr. Eckleburg (There are very few shades of gray)
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To: topcat54
"God has not withdrawn His promises to the Jewish people."

Klett has just repackaged "replacement" theology and given it a new name "commonwealth" theology. Instead of coming out and saying the church is now "Israel" he dilutes the promises and position of ethnic Israel as to render the promises and prophecies no different than their positions in "replacement" theology.

Just before His ascension, Jesus in His final teaching sessions with the disciples summarized and drew together His teachings and the Old Testament prophecies. Luke says He opened their understanding of the scriptures:

Luke 24:44 "And he said unto them, These [are] the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and [in] the prophets, and [in] the psalms, concerning me. Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,"

Act 1:3 "To whom also he shewed himself alive after his passion by many infallible proofs, being seen of them forty days, and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God: And, being assembled together with [them], commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, [saith he], ye have heard of me. For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence. When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel? And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power"

It would appear that Jesus taught them that would come a time when God would once again deal with Israel as a people in a way and time different from His dealings with the church. After His teaching and their understanding of the scriptures being enlightened, one of the last questions they ask concerns the kingdom returning to Israel, not the church.
5 posted on 09/18/2005 12:05:23 PM PDT by blue-duncan
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To: blue-duncan; topcat54
Isn't "replacement theology" a necessary conclusion of the Parable of the Vineyard (Mt. 21:41)? God took the Vineyard away from those who rejected Him, and gave it to other tenants .

The hearers of the parable understood its implications in Lu. 20:16. They answer, "May this never be!" They realized that this was a threat that Israel's franchise from God would be taken away from them, and given to another people who "would pay proceeds at the proper time" (Mt. 21:41).

6 posted on 09/18/2005 12:15:43 PM PDT by jude24 ("Stupid" isn't illegal - but it should be.)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg; topcat54

I to echo Dr. E. appreciation. I enjoy your articles and they have been a great blessing. It's nice to hear "another" view than the typical pre-trib/pre-mil that seems to be common these days.


7 posted on 09/18/2005 12:18:59 PM PDT by HarleyD ("...and as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed." Act 13:48)
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To: jude24; topcat54

"They answer"

It looks to me like the parables are directed to the chief priests and pharisees, not to common Israel. Jesus says the "publicans and harlots go into the Kingdom of God."

That still doesn't answer the puzzling question, why is the last question to the Lord, "When shall you return the Kingdom to Israel" if their understanding of the scriptures was enlightened and why didn't Jesus just tell them their thinking on the subject was wrong if there was going to be a "replacement" theology?


8 posted on 09/18/2005 12:45:48 PM PDT by blue-duncan
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To: blue-duncan
why didn't Jesus just tell them their thinking on the subject was wrong if there was going to be a "replacement" theology?

Who says he didn't? The Gospels and the Epistles seem to do an adequate job of fleshing out the case as to why. Just because he didn't answer their question directly then and there doesn't mean that he wouldn't eventually.

9 posted on 09/18/2005 12:48:16 PM PDT by jude24 ("Stupid" isn't illegal - but it should be.)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg
they are so much more than simple speculation about future events

Without endtimes speculation, how are we supposed to get such entertaining books like Left Behind and cheesy Christian movies with horrible acting?

10 posted on 09/18/2005 12:49:59 PM PDT by jude24 ("Stupid" isn't illegal - but it should be.)
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To: jude24

He did answer them in a way that would lead them to believe the Father would eventually restore the Kingdom to Israel. He said the "times and seasons" are in the Father's power not that their thinking is wrong. If my son asks when he will be getting a new baseball glove and I say the timing is up to his mother, I am telling him he will get it when his mother decides, not that the glove will be given to someone else, not him.


11 posted on 09/18/2005 1:09:08 PM PDT by blue-duncan
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To: jude24; topcat54; HarleyD; blue-duncan
...cheesy Christian movies with horrible acting...

I've always wondered why the acting is so inevitably "cheesy" in those films.

Is it because the actors can't relate to the material? Because the director is struggling to keep a straight face? Because God isn't in the audience? Or because Catherine Oxenberg should have quit after "Dynasty?"

12 posted on 09/18/2005 2:13:59 PM PDT by Dr. Eckleburg (There are very few shades of gray)
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To: blue-duncan; HarleyD; Dr. Eckleburg; jude24; Calvinist_Dark_Lord
That still doesn't answer the puzzling question, why is the last question to the Lord, "When shall you return the Kingdom to Israel" if their understanding of the scriptures was enlightened and why didn't Jesus just tell them their thinking on the subject was wrong if there was going to be a "replacement" theology?

He did, in His own way. First of all, as I said, He gives them no hope that the kingdom would be restored to Israel. Second, by His response one can tell that, once again, they were asking the wrong question. What does He say? "But you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be witnesses to Me in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth." Jesus turns their attention from the carnal things on which they tended to dwell, to the true nature of the kingdom, that it is universal and spiritual. They must go out into all the kingdom in order for it to be restored as God intended.

You can't see Jesus' answer because of your dispensational presuppositions.

13 posted on 09/18/2005 4:12:40 PM PDT by topcat54
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To: topcat54; blue-duncan; HarleyD; Dr. Eckleburg

The more I think about it, the argument, "the Kingdom will be restored to Israel because Jesus didn't correct his apostles is an argument from silence - a logical fallacy.


14 posted on 09/18/2005 4:17:06 PM PDT by jude24 ("Stupid" isn't illegal - but it should be.)
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To: jude24; topcat54; blue-duncan; xzins; HarleyD
The more I think about it, the argument, "the Kingdom will be restored to Israel because Jesus didn't correct his apostles is an argument from silence - a logical fallacy.

So what you are saying is that Jesus deliberately left the Disciples with a false impression? I don't think so. Jesus was not a politician. He was truth. Deliberately using words to leave a false impression can be chargeable as perjury. Clinton's statement that "there is no sex" would be the same thing. Clinton stated that there "is" no sex attempting to leave a false impression. What he said was technically true, because he was not having sex with Monica Lewinsky at that time. But it left a false impression. That statement was the reason why he lost his ticket to practice law.

By not correcting the Disciples' false impression, Jesus would have been engaged in the same sin that Clinton was engaged in.

The question was "Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?" If Jesus had no intention of restoring again the kingdom of Israel, the TRUTHful answer would have been "never". But his answer belies that theory. Jesus answer was TRUTH. His answer was "It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power"

In other words, Jesus' answer is "in due time and it's none of your business when." Not "never." It cannot reasonably be interpreted as "never". Unless you wish to make Jesus out to be a dissembler. There was no other question pending, so we must assume that his answer was the answer to the question posed. Your theory would have him commenting on a question which was not posed. If he did that in court he would be accused of being non-responsive and his answer would be striken.

I don't think Jesus dissembeled. In order to conclude that Jesus never intended to restore the kingdom to Israel, you would have to conclude that Jesus deliberately left a false impression. In law leaving a deliberately false impression under oath is Perjury. Jesus cannot be accused of that.

No, Jesus will restore the Kingdom of Israel. We are simply not given the information as to when.

15 posted on 09/18/2005 5:16:03 PM PDT by P-Marlowe
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To: jude24; topcat54; blue-duncan; HarleyD; Dr. Eckleburg

"The more I think about it, the argument, "the Kingdom will be restored to Israel because Jesus didn't correct his apostles is an argument from silence - a logical fallacy."

But Jesus did answer the question. He said the Father knows the time when it will be restored. He didn't need to correct the disciples since they asked the correct question. The answer was not "if" it will be restored but "when" and that was in the Father's timing.


16 posted on 09/18/2005 5:51:57 PM PDT by blue-duncan
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To: P-Marlowe; jude24; topcat54; blue-duncan; xzins
"By not correcting the Disciples' false impression, Jesus would have been engaged in the same sin that Clinton was engaged in."

And if our Lord Jesus would have been clearer on that "I am the bread of life" stuff than we wouldn't be arguing with the Catholics today.

Even after our Lord Jesus died on the cross and rosed from the grave the disciples were STILL looking for an earthly kingdom. It was only after Pentecost and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit did they realized the kingdom was not of this world.

17 posted on 09/18/2005 5:56:45 PM PDT by HarleyD ("...and as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed." Act 13:48)
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To: blue-duncan; jude24; topcat54; HarleyD; Dr. Eckleburg
He said the Father knows the time when it will be restored. He didn't need to correct the disciples since they asked the correct question.

Not true. Please look at specifically what our Lord Jesus stated:

There is no indication in this verse that it WILL happen. He only states that it isn't our business to know what times any event will happen. A subtle but important difference.

18 posted on 09/18/2005 6:05:25 PM PDT by HarleyD ("...and as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed." Act 13:48)
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To: topcat54; HarleyD; Dr. Eckleburg; jude24; Calvinist_Dark_Lord
"What does He say? "But you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be witnesses to Me in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth."

What Jesus said was the time of the restoration is not your business, it is the Father's and He will do it in His time. Your business is to be my witnesses. The Greek for "times" and "seasons", (chronos, kairos) speak to definite periods not conditionals. Jesus is telling them it will happen in God's time. Luke has just said (Acts 1:3) during this last meeting He spoke to them of things pertaining to the Kingdom of God and enlightened their understanding of the scriptures and their logical question was "when will it be restored to Israel". Jesus didn't criticize them for their dullness or stupidity or getting it wrong, He just said "it will be restored in God's time, you be my witnesses".
19 posted on 09/18/2005 6:11:21 PM PDT by blue-duncan
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To: HarleyD

I suppose it all depends upon what the meaning of the word "is" is.


20 posted on 09/18/2005 6:13:40 PM PDT by P-Marlowe
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