Replies

PM,

I've asked a very simple question, 'yes' or 'no' would have sufficed. For my part, I'm trying to keep this discussion as simple as possible, and the subject is indeed being changed. In brief, the long collection of Scriptural paraphrases which I was asked to read and ponder is an incomplete sentence. Moreover, as paraphrases, some of them are simply wrong, and appropriately the topic of another conversation. Moreover, PM, I've already commented on some of these and the comments have been ignored. Therefore, I am trying to keep my end of this conversation as specific as I can.

"... if that person were, for whatever reason, to commit murder - God forbid - then Christ would pray for that person, that their faith would not fail them, and the Holy Spirit would create such sorrow in their hearts as to prevail upon them to confess their sin and accept the forgiveness won for them by virtue of Christ's death o n their behalf in 33 AD to pay the just penalty for that sin in order that not o ne of Christ's sheep would perish."

So if a believer does not repent from his sins committed after conversion, (in this case murder) then he may indeed go to hell. To be as clear as possible, a believer will go to hell because of his sins. Have I understood you correctly?

*** I've asked a very simple question, 'yes' or 'no' would have sufficed***

It's not a simple question and I believe you know that. How would you respond if I asked you if you have stopped beating your wife? (Yes or No please).

***For my part, I'm trying to keep this discussion as simple as possible***

I appreciate that - these discussions have a tendency to balloon.

***and the subject is indeed being changed. ***

The subject under consideration is (as far as I understand it)

1. What is the nature of salvation

2. What is the nature of the regenerated believer.

***Moreover, as paraphrases, some of them are simply wrong, and appropriately the topic of another conversation..***

They are *pure*, 100% Pauline phrases (reworded for the third person). That, in and of itself, should give you pause. And they directly address point #2 above.

***Moreover, PM, I've already commented on some of these and the comments have been ignored. ****

I am sorry for that if I have failed to address important points. That is, alas, the unfortunate nature of the medium - some points are invariably overlooked. (Feel free to bring them up again should you wish. I seriously don't want to avoid any issues).

***So if a believer does not repent from his sins committed after conversion, (in this case murder) then he may indeed go to hell.***

I believe you're guilty of a tautology there. That is like asking, "what if a believer does not believe?" A believer, by his or her very nature, is one who repents. Repentance is a defining characteristic of their lives. Repentance is one of the GIFTS of God to the believer.

2 Timothy 2:25
"In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;"

Romans 2:4
Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?

***To be as clear as possible, a believer will go to hell because of his sins. Have I understood you correctly?***

No. A believer will not go to hell because of his sins.

I think the clearest expression of that in the NT is...

1 Thessalonians 5:9
"For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,"

Look at this...

Colossians 2:13
"And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;"

When a person puts their faith in Jesus Christ ALL their sins are forgive. ALL - past, present and future. That is the meaning of Justification. The believer is viewed as totally righteous in the eyes of God (and we must remember that God is outside of time - He sees all our sins simultaneously).

That is because a believer, if they are truly a believer, has entered into a covenant with God. That covenant clearly states...

"I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

And they shall not teach every man his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.

For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and *their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more*." - Heb 8

Believers may stumble in horrible ways, they may commit adultery, fornication, be guilty of terrible sins. But because they are in an everlasting covenant (Heb 13:20) ALL of their sins are forgiven. They are not forgive BECAUSE they repent - as if they had earned it by repenting, they are forgiven BECAUSE Christ paid the price for them. Repentance is the God-given means by which they can experience the blessing of that grace of forgiveness.

When we seek God's forgiveness we look back to the forgiveness that was poured out though the death of Jesus.

And now you seen the point of my question - When were your sins forgiven by God?