Good to see your post, Petronius Maximus.
"The Parousia is an example of a Biblical concept of an event being already present but not yet fully fulfilled - The Kingdom has come and yet will come. Salvation has come and yet will come."
That's interesting.
"You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace."
Fallen from Grace? That Scripture makes a very important point. I was beginning to get a little impatient trying to make this same point. It is possible to fall from Grace.
With regards to the point you are focused upon here, we are Justified by God. This passage is talking about the Jewish Law, specifically, he's referring to circumcision. The moral law, however, is still binding, and still guides us. Pardon me, but I've backed this up half a dozen times on this thread. I'll put down chapters and verses if needed, but my guess is that you agree with me and it's not necessary.
"My friend, anything that God promises is a fiat accompli."
I love your spirit, PM, and I would say nothing against this if I didn't see a possible danger in following it to its logical conclusion. God has done His part, He offered Himself in a Holy and Perfect Sacrifice on the Cross. Now if that were all that was required for our Salvation, then everyone would go to Heaven. We Christians understand, however, that something is in fact required of us, and that is an obedient response to God's Grace. We have no assurance of salvation if we do not respond to God's Grace in this way, and in that, it is those who persevere to the end who will be saved. That is the promise, not "convert to Christianity, and we will be go to heaven when we die." That teaching sounds a lot more like Islam than Christianity. With regards to the Scripture at hand, the Bible says Abraham persevered to the end, and so
obtained the promise. Those who do not persevere to the end have no guarantee of obtaining the promise. Correct? I feel like I've presented that point pretty clearly at least half a dozen times on this thread with various Scriptures, although I recognize that I may not have been in conversation with you.
"We will not be judged based on our action but on who we know." "Depart for me - I never knew you."
I like how you put that, however, we will be judged according to our actions, and I'll quote the same verses right back to you, "
Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord!' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of My Father in heaven. On that day many will say to Me, 'Lord, Lord, didn't we prophesy in Your name, drive out demons in Your name, and do many miracles in Your name?' Then I will announce to them, 'I never knew you!
Depart from Me, you lawbreakers!' "Therefore, everyone
who hears these words of Mine and acts on them will be like a sensible man who built his house on the rock."
Of which words is Jesus speaking? This is the conclusion to the Sermon on the Mount, which someone on this thread appears to have taken issue with here, but the direct reference is nonetheless to the Sermon on the Mount. As a refresher, it doesn't say, just convert to Christianity and you're guaranteed to go to heaven, nor does it say "just believe," or "we are saved by faith alone." It says, Blessed are the poor in Spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven, Blessed are the clean of heart, for they shall see God, Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they shall be filled, blessed are the merciful, for they shall be shown mercy, do not judge others, lest we ourselves be judged, trust God, don't put riches and material possessions ahead of God, know that with what measure we measure, it will be measured unto us, don't retaliate, keep your promises, control our passions of anger and lust, say our prayers sincerely, and give to the poor. It further says, whoever is angry at his brother is in danger of judgment. If I might perhaps redeem myself with Quester, it also says, "Whoever observes these Commandments and teaches others to do likewise will be called the greatest in the Kingdom of Heaven." Obviously I do indeed have some ulterior motives going on here. ;-)
"If we are judged based soley on actions then how could Paul say...
"If I give away all I have, and if I deliver up my body to be burned, but have not love, I gain nothing."
Touche'! That verse most certainly proves that we are not judged by our actions alone, excellent point and excellent logic! However, I've never said we would be judged on our actions alone. We Catholics are not real big on sticking the word "alone" after everything, and I think I've argued pretty strongly on this thread about the importance of love. (see also the article at the head of this thread.) Heaven is prepared for those who love God, indeed, but we will be judged according to our actions, and that will include actions of mercy and love. Following your logic, however, that verse does indeed point out that we cannot be saved by faith alone. "For if I have all faith, so as to move mountains, but have not love, then I am nothing."
"Where do we get that kind of love my friend?"
Love, like faith and hope, is a gift from God. He calls us to exercise them all.
"You need to look at those passages harder. Paul clearly teaches that the Holy Spirit is the down payment or the "engagement ring" of the salvation of the believer."
You can call it a down payment if you like, not being a financial analyst, I'll call it the gateway to the life of the spirit, and God's most beautiful and gracious gift. Nonetheless, it's no guarantee. The passage I quoted was about those who have received the Holy Spirit but have nonetheless turned away.
"For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame." (Hebrews 6:4-6)
Converted to Christ, received the Holy Spirit, then fell away. Ergo, no guarantee. You've also seen this happen to people you know, right? After becoming Christians we must nonetheless battle sin, and all of us do well to hope for the Grace of final perseverance.
"First installment is a fine translation. What God has put a down payment on, He will surely redeem. Can you imagine Him defaulting. "
Indeed, I can't, but it's not God I'm worried about, it's us. Speaking in the language of downpayements, remember Esau sold his birthright for a bowl of soup. So too may people who act immorally sell their salvation for something vastly inferior. PM, I hope everyone goes to heaven, but I'm not going to presume upon that. What we are discussing is assurance of salvation, and that assurance is linked to perseverance in loving God and loving our fellow man. Those who fall away have no guarantee, ditto those who become lukewarm, those who do not show mercy, those who lapse into evildoing, and those believers for whom the things of life becomes more important than the next.
***This sentence does not say, once you have confessed with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and once you have believed in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you have been saved.*** The verse leave NO OTHER OPTION open. If you do those things you WILL be saved - Period - End of Story. If you WILL surely be saved then your ARE saved now."
This is from an older post, although I avoided bringing it up, but since we're on the subject, I feel like the point has been missed here. Do you see that these are not equivalent statements? The action specified by Scripture is present tense on the part of the believer, future tense on the part of God, as you noted, but the statement which I wrote is not Scriptural, rather it's a misreading of Scripture to be in the past perfect tense, and not equivalent to the statement you made. The operative word here, and in many places in Scripture is "
if".
"The only "actions" we are capable of are tarnished at best. The only truly "good works" that man can perform are those done by God acting though him.
We can't perform good actions, but we can perform Good actions????? Can you elaborate? If you don't mind, Quester and I have been through this quite a few times, would you mind taking a look at those threads to see where I might be confused with the Protestant approach to this? Are you saying there is no free will??
"Poppycock! :) The book of 1st John was written for the very purpose of helping people discern whether they were truly converted or not... ",
Not many people say poppycock these days, I'm not going to ask how old you are. (And you just had to give me something to give you a hard time about, didn't you?) You can read 1 John as a way to discern whether or not someone has been fully converted to Christ or not if you want, but I think you know what I'm talking about, and if not, perhaps checking back on gamecock's posts early in the thread will clarify.
Those are great quotes from 1 John. Strictly speaking, they don't speak to having had a conversion experience, but rather of belonging to God, that is not of whether a conversion was true, but rather whether it is complete and enduring. In that sense, they're a lot like the Sermon on the Mount. Those are great examples demonstrating that the Commandments are not optional, and why it is that a Christian must keep the Commandments.
"All who keep His Commandments abide in Him, and He in them."
"And by this we may be sure that we know Him, if we keep His Commandments."
"For this is the love of God, that we keep his Commandments."
"I found this interesting passage of a Jewish Christian site... ",
That's an interesting article, I'll have to think about it next time I read through Genesis, God willing. Off hand, I'd say it's questionable at best, it says possession of the land is not dependent upon the keeping of the Covenant. Perhaps the author should go back and read psalm 137. Perhaps a look at psalm 74 which talks about the covenant directly would be even better. The Law and the Covenants were given by God for man's own good, not God's. Abraham remained faithful, and God kept his covenant with him. Of Abraham's descendants who did not remain faithful, things did not go so well. For the purpose of this conversation, Christ will Keep his promise to the Church, this we know, but what of the individual? We too have a responsibility in the economy of salvation.
"(Sorry for the long post)"
It's not as long as mine have been on this thread. I could do without all the blank space and ellipses I've been reading through lately, but I certainly appreciate your thoughts.
BTW, I would be interested in your thoughts about something, Petronius Maximus. You asked a few days ago, "Where is the entire body of the Epistles, is the believer ever warned of the danger of their eternal destruction?" I didn't answer initially, in part because I thought it was odd to restrict the answer to the Epistles, in part because I wondered why you specifically wanted it in the form of a warning, and in part because you wanted that warning directed specifically at believers. There are very few verses in Scripture that I think clearly speak of eternal damnation, in fact, there may not be any, and the one that is clearest to me makes no distinction between those who believe and do not believe, but rather refers only to the conduct of the individual and whether or not they acted mercifully. Given that, I thought it was odd to put such restrictions on it. In response to your question, I can only think of one convincing verse in the Epistles that probably describes eternal destruction. It is not phrased as a warning, but it does indeed appear to apply to believers, at least in my translation. (2 Thesalonians 1:7-9)
"...when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with his mighty angels in flaming fire,inflicting vengeance upon those who do not acknowledge God AND upon those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. They shall suffer the punishment of eternal destruction and exclusion from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might...."
Nobody is being given a warning here, other than the reader of the letter, but the punishment is for two groups, those who do not acknowledge God, and for those who are disobedient to the Gospel of Jesus Christ. I understand the last one to apply to those believers who are disobedient to the teachings of Christ. Presumably this is the same group as those who address Him as 'Lord, Lord', and who prophesied, drove out demons, and performed miracles in His name in the Scriptures we quoted above, but were nonetheless disobedient to the Gospel of Jesus Christ--lawless, or evildoers.
To me, the promises in the Epistles seem to be primarily couched in the positive. I find the promise of eternal life to those who by patiently doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality in Romans 2: 7 but the counter is more vague as to eternity. The Catholic Church certainly teaches that eternal damnation is a possibility, however, I've noticed that some Evangelical Christians have questioned the eternity of Hell. In fact, I think there was a post here on FR a few weeks ago about it, although I didn't follow up on it. One can certainly argue that Hell often appears to be described more as a fire that burns for ages, rather than eternal punishment in that fire.
I'd like to turn that question around to you. Do you think anyone will actually go to hell forever? What Scripture do you look to for support of your view?
-IQ