Quester,
I don't mind challenging you on your beliefs, but I can see my last post upset you.
"...is there not some ego (i.e. not loving me as yourself) which I see in your responses?"
Then pray for me, brother.
"Have you, in this discussion even, loved me as much as you've loved yourself..."
I've put as much time as I've had to give into responding as thoroughly and specifically to your posts as I have been able. Is there something more love requires in this situation? If so, show me, and if convinced, I will not be remiss.
"You really should educate yourself scripturally"
Amen, Brother, please pray for me that I may come to know and live the Scriptures more fully.
"I have presented at least a half-dozen scriptural references, some from the lips of Jesus, Himself, ... which say clearly that God's requirement from man to obtain the salvation He offers ... is faith/belief."
The question has never been whether or not God requires faith. Without faith, it is impossible to please God, this we know. Please see post 196. The question here is being saved by faith
alone, and that has been not shown from Scripture--because it's not there, Quester. That's a man made invention of the 16th century. Look for yourself, where does Scripture say we are saved by faith
alone? Quester, show me where Scripture says "faith
alone."
"That you prefer not to deal honestly with such scriptural statements as I has previously offered ... is only reindorced by this, another claim of yours.
"Though I have responded to you that I do not have difficulty with this passage ... you refuse to accept my testimony as truth for me ... and prefer to twist the meaning of my responses to that which serves your purpose. You might wish to take time to consider your own level of honesty in this discussion ... and what your real objectives are. "
I can see I've upset you. My assumption is that you are even-keeled and not weak in faith--and I still hold those assumptions. My objective is not to hurt you, but to challenge you. It does indeed appear to me that these passages have caused you some discomfort. Where have I been dishonest? I am reading the passage literally. You've asserted that the people in Matthew 19:16-35 are lying to each other, that people are not being straightforward with each other (including Jesus), that it's simply ambiguous, that the meaning must be hidden, or even that the passage makes itself invalid. The passage is crystal clear. It is the attempt to impose Martin Luther's doctrine of "faith
alone" upon the Scripture that is causing difficulty, not a literal reading of this passage or the Sermon on the Mount. Our faith must not stand alone, Quester, or else it is less than worthless.
I believe we Christians have nothing to loose by seeking out the truth, and that we must wrestle with the Word of God and come to grips with whatever claims it makes of us. This passage makes some extraordinary claims, and it is no suprise that they would initially be troubling to anyone who believes 1) that they are saved by belief alone, and 2) that they were guaranteed to go to heaven when they die based upon their conversion experience. Neither of these beliefs, as comfoting as they may be, are Scriptural.
"As you do ... I believe that these beliefs that you now see as baloney ... will be revealed to you as God's truth, ... as well."
It's not the Bible that I think is questionable, it's the man made beliefs which are being imposed upon the Scriptures. Have I not been told repeatedly and empahtically that it is impossible for people to keep the 6 Commandments that Jesus said we must keep to see eternal life, much less live according to the teachings of the Sermon on the Mount? Furthermore, have I not been told that moral living and good works follow automatically from the conversion experience? Are these not contradictory statements? Perhaps you could clarify this for me.
"I said that I see that the scripture you reference speaks of a loss of faith ... by one which previously believed ... for which ... there is no return to salvation."
This Scripture (Hebrews 4:4-6) speaks simply of falling away, and with that passage, we see that the conversion experience is no guarantee, correct? Anyone can fall away, right? Other passages speak of those who are luke warm, those who commmit serious sin, those who do not show mercy, and those who simply value this world more than the next. Or shall I elaborate upon that from Scripture? It says quite a bit about this. (By the way, we are speaking of salvation here, and as we know regarding Salvation, with God, all things are possible.) I only bring this up because people appear to be discounting Scripture based on a superimposition of man made doctrines about a different moral standard and Scriptural understanding being applied to those who are "saved" versus those who are "unsaved." There are no 'saved" people in the Bible, the people are being saved by Grace through Faith working in Love.
"Indeed we shall as believers we shall be rewarded for our lasting works and shall suffer loss for our works which were not of God, but even then, we shall be saved, so as by fire. This point you have also failed to address. "
Conversion is no guarantee of salvation, Quester, I think I've made that clear, so clearly I think you're operating under false assumptions when you read this passage. It says nothing of a guarantee of salvation, all must face judgement. You can choose to believe that this passage means that God will sanctify the believer in this life, or you can even choose to see it as a purgatorial cleansing in the next, but those who persist in sin and do not show mercy have no guarantee of eternal life, regardless. Not everyone who says to Jesus," Lord, Lord," will enter the Kingdom of Heaven.
"One cannot base one's entire belief set on one passage of scripture."
Amen, Brother, and I do believe I've had John 6:47, beautiful Scripture that it is, quoted to me quite a few times as somehow seen to be over-ruling the rest of Scripture. Actually, it's been a peculiar interpretation of this Scripture that is held to trump other Scriptures.
"Some of these spiritual things might be that, upon conversion, God begins a work in hearts and minds...";
I agree.
" that, upon conversion, God takes us in as His adopted children"
I agree.
"that He has pledged to ... never cast us out."
The passage you quote does not refer to conversion alone. Be that as it may, we are free to walk away from God. You have seen fellow Christians do that. They did indeed convert, but rather chose to walk away later.
"That, upon conversion, God seals us unto the day of redemption, with the indwelling of His Holy Spirit."
You have just discussed a passage (Hebrews 6: 4-6) which discusses those who have experienced the indwelling of the Holy Spirit but later fall away. Therefore, no guarantee of salvation there, correct?
"I said that I see that the scripture you reference speaks of a loss of faith ... by one which previously believed ... for which ... there is no return to salvation."
"God has both the power and will to oppose any effort to separate us from Himself."
So?? It is incorrect to assume that he will impose His Will upon a believer in this life. Rather that is something we must freely choose, or even pray for as we do in some Catholic prayers, and in a certain sense, in the Lord's prayer itself. Moreover, we just covered this in the last statement, in which you spoke distinctly of people losing faith, despite having experienced the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. Clearly people can separate themselves from the Love of God. Are you arguing here that we do not have free will? That would be an unscriptural position. Do you really want to go there? I'll be blunt, it's easier to read the plain meaning of Scripture than to tie yourself up into knots by trying to reconcile "justification by faith alone" with the very Scriptures that it contradicts. Following Conversion and Baptism, the believer must obey the teachings of Christ, including his moral Commandments, otherwise there is not assurance of salvation.
"I believe, with Paul, that neither of us can say that we have arrived in our scriptural understanding and we can both certainly benefit by further study. Such study is needful and profitable to the servant of God who wishes to be effective for God.May we both continue to pursue such."
Amen, Brother.