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PM: Would you be surprised to find something like [a declaration of faith sufficient for salvation] clearly taught by the Scriptures?

annalex: I am sure you can point me to isolated verses that mention faith seemingly in that sense.

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I could point you to more than just isolated verses.

The entire body of the Epistles presupposes that believers have entered into and stand in a present tense experience of justification. This is not seen as something they will receive at the end of their lives if they have been good - it is something they posses RIGHT NOW.

Rom 5 - "Therefore, *since we have been justified* by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ. Through him we have also obtained access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and we rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

Romans 5:9
Much more then, *being now justified* by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

Romans 5:8-10
For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, *being reconciled*, we shall be saved by his life.

***The Calvinist logic would have Christ giving salvation to some and damnation to others, not a scriptural view:***

I do not argue for Calvinist logic.

PM: the free gift of salvation is not given based on our goodness or good works - how therefore can it be lost because of a lack of good works.

annalex: It does not follow. Christ offers salvation and man chooses sin.

If the gift of eternal life is a free gift then it must never "require" good works as payment (or even as upkeep) - past, present or future.

Listen to this clear statement from Paul...

"But what does it say?
"The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart"
(that is, the word of faith that we proclaim); because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved."

annalex, where is the requirement of good works? Why does Paul not say, "if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, [...and do a lot of good works] you will be saved."

Good works invariably follow in the wake of justification but they do not contribute to nor earn one justification.

***The Samaritan woman did not read any Gospel. ***

Ah, but she did! She read the whole Gospel in the face and words of Jesus Christ.

It's all there...

1. "There cometh a woman of Samaria to draw water: Jesus saith unto her, Give me to drink."

(Salvation process initiated by Jesus)

2. "Jesus answered and said unto her, If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink; thou wouldest have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water."

(Eternal life offered - as a gift asked for and received)

3. "The woman answered and said, I have no husband. Jesus said unto her, Thou hast well said, I have no husband:"

(Self-revelation and humiliation)

4. "Jesus saith unto her, I that speak unto thee am he."

(Realization and acceptance of Jesus as Messiah)

5. "Come, see a man, which told me all things that ever I did: is not this the Christ?"

(Immediate desire to spread the good news of Jesust)

It's all there annalex.

"Would you be surprised to find something like [a declaration of faith sufficient for salvation] clearly taught by the Scriptures?"

Yes, although perhaps pleasantly so. I'm looking at the verses quoted in this post, however, and they all refer to being saved in the future. The translation you're quoting uses the word "shall" mine says "will". Either way, that's future tense.

Rom 5 - "Therefore, *since we have been justified* by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ. Through him we have also obtained access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and we rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

I see that it says we have been justified (made righteous) but it does not say we have a guarantee of going to heaven based upon this. Rather it says we have been obtained access to His Grace through Christ by faith, and we stand in that Grace. I think we do well to read this in light of 1 Co 10:12

"Therefore, whoever thinks he stands must be careful lest he fall!""

"Romans 5:9
Much more then, *being now justified* by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

Romans 5:8-10
For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, *being reconciled*, we shall be saved by his life."

(My bible has this as "having been reconciled, we will be saved")

Listen to this clear statement from Paul...

"But what does it say? "The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart"(that is, the word of faith that we proclaim); because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved."

All of these refer to being saved in the future tense: we shall be saved, we will be saved. Moreover, in the last quote, it says we will be saved for a present tense action. That is, we confess and we believe in His Lordship, present tense. This sentence does not say, once you have confessed with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and once you have believed in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you have been saved.

It seems clear to me that it is those who persist in believing in and witnessing to the Lordship of Christ will be saved, and that this is not referring to a one time event. (Deathbed conversion being a possible exception.)

I'm particularly disturbed that anyone might be reading that last sentence as an indication that we can say, "I'm saved!" in the sense that it would mean,"I have been saved" ie I've received a guarantee to go to heaven when I die, regardless of my actions (as some seem to understand this.) That's saved, passive tense, not saved present perfect tense. It's describing how things work in general, not something that has already occurred. ie, Patients at the medical center are cured by doctors, cars are driven by owners, carpets are cleaned by janitors. It does not mean that the particular carpet, or car or person has been cleaned, driven, or cured, nor does this mean that they will never need to undergo this process again. In short, it does not say we have been guaranteed to go to Heaven when we die.

To be honest, I'm totally puzzled by the use of the term, "I am saved" Is it me, or is this a grammatical atrocity? In what sense is the word "saved" being used here?? It seems to me that what is meant is that one has been saved. Scripture, on the other hand, seems to have a strong preference for saying we will be saved (in the future) or we are being saved (through an ongoing process.) It seems to me that someone has taken the passive tense of these passages, and used a very ungrammatical reading of it to re-construct a guarantee of salvation based upon the conversion experience. I think this is reflected in the typical way that people phrase this, ungrammatically: "I got saved." Has bad grammer lead to bad theology?

I don't see as a Scriptural teaching the idea that a guarantee of salvation flows automatically from the conversion experience. Rather, we are always dependent upon the grace and mercy of God.

Regarding the letter to Romans, I will spare you a separate response and refer you to the excellent #172 by InterestedQuestioner.

Generally, when discussing such quotes from (in particular) St. Paul, let us keep in mind, first, the important distinction made by Aikin in the head article, between faith formed by work of charity and declarative faith, and second, the distinction between the works of law and the works of love. Both the Galatians and the Romans tend to discuss the contrast between the works of Old Testament law and the unmerited and liberating gift of salvation. These epistles do not discuss the false dichotomy of faith vs. works.

Does the unmerited and liberating gift of salvation require payment? Of course not. That would be salvation by works, clearly argued against in the Letter of St. James. Does it require "upkeep"? Well, yes. Most gifts do. Christ saved both thieves. One dies cursing Him, the other, praying to Him. Only one thief is saved; the other did not do the work of prayer and dedicated suffering. Let me hasten to add that a deathbed conversion is one case where declarative faith, if sincere, is sufficient for salvation; a faith of a child is the other. In both exceptions the opportunity to do charitable work is not there; or, perhaps, the prayer of repentance is all the work that is available and needed.

You bring up, to another poster, the test that correctly indicates that excepting Christ and Mary, we all have sinned against the commandments. This makes me think that perhaps you are arguing against a strawman. The Church does not teach (1) that an obedient to commandments totality of life is a requirement for salvation or (2) obedient to commandments end of life is a requirement for salvation, or even (3) works of charity per se is a requirement for salvation. Rather, the Church teaches that faith tested and formed by freely chosen works of obedience and charity is a requirement for salvation. Examples:

- A Pharisee that has obeyed every item in the Law of Moses out of submission to the law is not thereby saved;

- A Methodist who has tirelessly volunteered in every charity he could find because it gave him psychological satisfaction is not thereby saved;

- A Baptist who sincerely proclaimed his faith to the congregation in a charged with fervent emotion moment is not thereby saved;

- But either a Pharisee, a Methodist or a Baptist will be saved at the hour of his death if he has lived a lifetime of conversion to Christ working in love; or if his faith was tested by martyrdom.

The Samaritan woman experienced conversion and went on to do the work of evangelization. Her encounter was with Christ. Surely Christ is the Word. But we distinguish the books of the Holy Scripture, which she did not read or heard proclaimed (excepting possibly the Old Testament in the course of Samaritan worship, which was a sect of Judaism) and the Word. My comment was prompted by your "spiritual transformation as a result of hearing and believing the Gospel", and I corrected it by replacing "Gospel" with "Christ". Surely you don't think that the Gospel as a book, rather than as a manifestation of Christ, converts?