Isn't that exactly what Warren is doing?
I do think there is some accountability as good stewarts.
Posted on 08/28/2005 7:04:42 PM PDT by buckeyesrule
Isn't that exactly what Warren is doing?
I do think there is some accountability as good stewarts.
If anything, this version would lean more towards the majority view being that one can lose their salvation, but that they wished to explore it more fully before teaching it "with the full persuasion of [their] minds." (emph added)
In reality, this is hardly different that a Reformed church's proceeding to excommunicate wayward members. then there is the argument that maybe those who reject their faith were never 'Saved' to begin with. Such a question is limited to either the Reformed position or a more arminian one.
Huh? That has nothing whatsoever to do with excommunication. As far as the issue of apostasy, while the Arminian view in the case of the Remonstrants was vague, the Reformed view was quite clear.
The 'P' of TULIP is pretty much the only part in which I am in agreement, it would be unfair to say that all the Remonstrants agreed that one can lose their salvation. the very words of the Remostrants clearly indicate otherwise, even if some of them did think one could lose their Salvation. If the majority was of that onpinion, the wording would have been significantly different.
Which I have never said. I have always maintained that the Remonstrants did not come down solidly on either side but rather left it open to future determination. This still stands in contrast to the clearly defined position of the Reformers, but only in the fact that it is not clearly defined.
the very words of the Remostrants clearly indicate otherwise, even if some of them did think one could lose their Salvation. If the majority was of that onpinion, the wording would have been significantly different.
That's argument from silence, CTD. The fact is that they did not clearly define it, and history shows that a great number of their theological heirs came down on the side of being able to lose one's salvation.
Thanks for the ping!
You're the one that said that American Christians should have fought the "evil Muslim hordes" in 1994. The "evil Muslim hordes" were busy saving people's lives then. If you think that that is somehow the greatest evil perpetrated in Rwanda 11 years ago, that puts your on par with the genocidaires who thought that terrorizing, torturing, raping, killing and butchering Tustis and non-genocidal Hutus, then by all means you are right to add to the body count by shooting up a few thousand Muslims who saved thousands of lives.
If you can explain your desire to take up arms against the Muslim Rwandans that were saving lives instead of trying to stop the Christian Rwandans that were killing people, be my guest. But given (in advance) your inability to do so, it looks like you're trying to blame the true heroes of 1994 for the massacres they tried to stop. That's pretty low, if you ask me.
PM-"Isn't that exactly what Warren is doing?"
I'm sorry. The more I meditate on this the more I become convince that we are indeed responsible for where our tithing goes and how it is spent. Otherwise why not just throw it into one big massive pot and trust God to have someone else spend your money? If your pastor went out and bought a hot tub wouldn't someone question him? Don't we appoint trustworthy men over us who are suppose to use our church funds wisely? Doesn't the church agree which missions to support and which ones not to support? WHY and WHAT IS THE CRITERIA???
Consider the following:
or these verses:
Paul gives us instructions that we are stewarDs of God's kingdom. It is our responsibility to ensure EVERYTHING that has been entrusted to us is managed and that would include our tithing.
You could argue, as some have, that sending your tithes this way you're taking a "leap of faith" in trusting God to further His kingdom to visionaries. I say rubbish. This is NOT good stewardship. It's like you giving to your church and taking a "leap of faith" that the money will be used wisely as the pastor heads to Vegas.
Doesn't ANYONE out there want to see the books???? HELLO? Can we say ENRON????
I think I've made it abundantly clear that without complete understanding of what is to be accomplished this mission is doomed to failure. Some say this is a lack of faith on my part. To those charges I would simply say this is good stewardship which God requires of us.
God doesn't need our money. Yet He expects good stewardship from us.
"Muslim Rwandans [were] the true heroes of 1994 for the massacres they tried to stop."
What, by protecting their own a$$?
You still haven't dealt with the substance of my post#38.
The massacre could have been avoided if the Islam-lovers in charge at the UN had acted. Their failure to act lead to the massacre of hundreds of thousands of Christians.
they were heroes because they hid people from the genocidaires.
its ridiculous that you're trying to blame muslims for this, based only on the fact that one of kofi annan's deputies has a muslim name and refused to stop the shipment of weapons to the genocidal hutu nationalists, who were professing christians.
the UN will never be able to atone for its actions and inactions in rwanda, but why blame rwanda's muslims when they were doing what YOU failed to do: save lives.
you haven't dealt with the substance of my posts.
why do you think it would be better to kill the people who saved people from the genocide?
wouldl you want to take up arms against raoul wallenberg?
or anne frank?
I called for a defense of Christians in the orginal post.
Big difference in semantics between defending and killing.
Now, take your strawman elsewhere.
Defending Christians is a good thing, but in your original post you said: "I'm only speaking of professing Christians that should have joined together and assembled a force to fight the evil Muslim hordes."
Which, in the case of Rwanda, meant fighting the protectors of tens of thousands of Chrisitans and blaming them for the genocide. There's a difference between defending and fighting, but fighting the people who are defending the innocent from genocide is a lot closer to killing than defending.
I'm glad you've recognized that, while it's the standard answer for the "Nuke Mecca" crowd, blaming innocent Muslims for all the problems of the world is useless, stupid and, when the blinders are on too tight, deadly.
ON this page there is a message from an African Evangelist pleading with people to counteract Purpose Driven because it is coming to Africa, just the next heresy right behind the Prosperity gospel. It's called "Race to Africa" and there are a lot of other good audio files and reports linked to there as well.
http://www.lighthousetrailsresearch.com/audio.htm
A lot of people who never get nearly the attention he gets, who barely have enough money to clothe themselves and their families.
You know the story about how the Moravian church was founded don't you? They have been doing this for a LOOOOONG time, with much less fanfare. They didn't have a 40 day campaign, they just up and did it.
from Ten Shekels and a Shirt By Paris Reidhead.
Two young Moravians heard of an island in the West Indies where an atheist British owner had 2000 to 3000 slaves. And the owner had said, "No preacher, no clergyman, will ever stay on this island. If he's ship wrecked we'll keep him in a separate house until he has to leave, but he's never going to talk to any of us about God, I'm through with all that nonsense." Three thousand slaves from the jungles of Africa brought to an island in the Atlantic and there to live and die without hearing of Christ.
Two young Moravians heard about it. They sold themselves to the British planter and used the money they received from their sale, for he paid no more than he would for any slave, to pay their passage out to his island for he wouldn't even transport them. As the ship left its' pier in the river at Hamburg and was going out into the North Sea carried with the tide, the Moravians had come from Herrenhut to see these two lads off, in their early twenties. Never to return again, for this wasn't a four year term, they sold themselves into life time slavery. Simply that as slaves, they could be as Christians where these others were. The families were there weeping, for they knew they would never see them again. And they wondered why they were going and questioned the wisdom of it. As the gap widened and the housings had been cast off and were being curled up there on the pier, and the young boys saw the widening gap, one lad with his arm linked through the arm of his fellow, raised his hand and shouted across the gap the last words that were heard from them, they were these, "MAY THE LAMB THAT WAS SLAIN RECEIVE THE REWARD OF HIS SUFFERING!"
This became the call of Moravian missions. And this is the only reason for being, That the Lamb that was slain may receive the reward of His suffering!
I'm going to say to you dear friend if you're out here without Christ, you come to Jesus Christ and serve Him as long as you live whether you go to Hell at the end of the way BECAUSE HE IS WORTHY!
I say to you Christian friend you come to the cross and join Him in union, in death, and enter into all the meaning of death to self in order that HE can have glory. I say to you dear Christian if you do not know the fullness of the Holy Ghost, come and present your body a living sacrifice, and let Him fill you so that He can have the purpose for His coming fulfilled in you and get glory through your life. IT'S NOT WHAT YOU'RE GOING TO GET OUT OF GOD, IT'S WHAT'S HE IS GOING TO GET OUT OF YOU.
Let's be done, once and for all, with utilitarian Christianity that makes God a means, instead of the glorious END that He is. Let's resign, let's tell Micah we're through. We're no longer going to be his priests serving for ten shekels and a shirt. Let's tell the tribe of Dan we're through. And let's come and cast ourselves at the feet of the nail pierced Son of God and tell Him that we're going to obey Him, and love Him, and serve Him, as long as we live BECAUSE HE IS WORTHY!
Why doesn't he go and stay there instead of making others go? He does tour, but that's nice and safe.
That being said, I can't not like the guy. I'm sure if I knew him I could have nothing but warm feelings for him, and still be very sad that he's only getting half the picture.
And who, pray tell, gets the whole picture?
Certainly not me.
I'm probably in the 12% range. I do hope you feel sorry for me. :-)
For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known. (1Co 13:12)
you need to ask ? - I can think of 3 or 4 vapid posters right off the bat -
You know - its the whole "my gig is better than everyone elses gig" mindset
I personally think they get so foamy because warren has succeeded in doing what thier blessed pastors havent.....motivate people into Christian action
Likely, he has motivated them right out of thier dying, gilded, dusty doors
Read this article and tell me if you think this is exactly what Rick Warren is doing.
I actually don,t think Warren even realizes it himself
link
http://www.issuesetc.org/resource/journals/v1n9.htm
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