Posted on 08/23/2005 8:42:21 AM PDT by Terriergal
LAKE FOREST, Calif. - Saddleback Community Church is the largest congregation in the Southern Baptist Convention. But is it really Southern Baptist?
Pastor Rick Warren told a group of high-profile journalists in May that the 40,000-member church no longer is a member of the Southern Baptist Convention. But he retracted that statement Aug. 20, saying he misspoke.
A "transcript" of the interview, which was posted on the website of the widely respected Pew Forum for Religion and Public Life in May, was altered to delete the declaration at Warren's request, a Pew spokesman said. The revised "transcript" does not indicate it was altered and no explanation is offered on the website.
Warren told Associated Baptist Press Aug. 20: "I'm Southern Baptist. Our church is Southern Baptist. And we are a leader in SBC missions support in our state."
In the original May 23 interview, Warren responded to a question by Rebecca Haggerty of NBC's "Dateline," who asked in what denomination he grew up.
Warren responded: "My father was a Baptist pastor. I grew up in little tiny churches of less than 50 people. I call myself an evangelical. We are - "
Haggerty apparently interrupted with another question: "Your church is not a Baptist church?"
Warren responded: "No - it was. In the early years, when we first got started, it was a part of the Southern Baptist Convention. One out of ten churches in America is an SBC church, and the reason the denomination's so big is that every church is totally independent. The denomination has no control over it. So basically we cooperated with them in their missions program, but now we're doing our own missions program."
The altered transcript, on the other hand, ends the quotation with "I call myself an evangelical." It then jumps to the next question by Haggerty, on a different topic.
Burke Olsen, a spokesman for the Pew Forum, told Associated Baptist Press the response was edited out at the request of Warren or his representative. Asked if such alterations are made routinely without any acknowledgement in the transcript, Olsen said, "Our longstanding policy is to let speakers change anything they want to in a transcript."
In a later email, Olsen added, "The Pew Forum gives its event speakers the opportunity to review the transcripts of their remarks. The transcript currently posted on the Forum's website has been reviewed and approved by Rick Warren. Anyone seeking additional comments should contact Mr. Warren's office directly."
Warren told ABP he missed a chance to change the quote in the first transcript because he was traveling and too busy to review it. "Bad idea!" he said. "... When I read the transcript, I was horrified!"
Warren, whose recent book "The Purpose-Driven Life" has sold a record 20 million copies, later asked Pew to change the quote, which the organization did. But not before the transcript got passed around among some Southern Baptists, stirring discussion on several Internet chatrooms and weblogs.
Ryan DeBarr, a Southern Baptist from Louisville, commented on Warren's apparent departure from the SBC. "...[I]f he feels out of place in the convention, then I think it's a good move for all sides," he wrote on his blog, ryandebarr.com. "I can appreciate a person who stands by their convictions. Disagreement isn't always a bad thing, if it's handled correctly, and I hope this will be."
The rumor of Saddleback's departure from the Southern Baptist Convention took on more credence after the July Baptist World Alliance meeting in England, where Warren, a keynote speaker, disagreed publicly with the SBC's withdrawal from BWA.
Saddleback Community Church, started by Warren and his wife, Kay, in 1980, has always downplayed its denominational affiliation because of what Warren calls "widespread misperceptions" about Southern Baptists. Nothing on the church website mentions the SBC, and Warren admits many people who attend the church are not aware of its SBC affiliation.
"I am not ashamed of my Southern Baptist heritage and we clearly explain in our membership class that Saddleback is affiliated both doctrinally and financially with the Southern Baptist Convention," he explained in his 1995 best seller, "The Purpose-Driven Church." The congregation decided not to promote its SBC membership so that the SBC's negative connotations wouldn't interfere with the congregation's evangelism. "Many unbelievers, particularly those with Catholic background, told me they would never even consider visiting a Southern Baptist congregation."
Saddleback claims 40,000 members and regular attenders, which would make it the largest church in the country. In 2004 the church gave $150,000 through the California Southern Baptist Convention, which qualifies them as a California Baptist and Southern Baptist church.
Warren said he misunderstood Haggerty's question during the May interview, which included journalists from ABC, NBC, National Public Radio, The New Republic, National Review, Washington Post, New York Times and Atlantic Monthly. Warren appeared at the Pew Forum's "Faith Angle" conference in Key West, Fla., where he was asked to speak on the topic "Myths of the Modern Mega-Church."
"At one point I thought I was asked if Saddleback was identified as a Southern Baptist church, and I told the reporter 'no' because we've never had Southern Baptist in the name of our church," he told ABP in an Aug. 20 e-mail. "Reading the transcript, I saw that the question was, 'Your church is not a Baptist church?'
"In the early years of our church, we used to put the byline 'Southern Baptist Convention' under the name 'Saddleback Community Church' in our ads, business cards and brochures, but we dropped that by 1982. But for 25 years our church has been involved in the convention at the association, state and national level and has no intention of changing that."
"The bottom line is I jumbled my words in haste trying to quickly explain that Saddleback has thousands of members - over 4,500 - who've gone on short-term missions around the world. It appears that I said we're not supporting Southern Baptist missions, but, of course, that simply isn't true."
Warren said a person in the public spotlight is bound to "eventually say something he didn't mean, or intend, or even believe."
"Any individual's ministry and impact needs to be evaluated in toto, and not on the basis of one stray comment from a live (and sometime adversarial) interview," he added. "I trust that fellow Southern Baptists will realize that my and Saddleback's mission is better reflected by our faithful track record over 25 years, rather than my fatigue in the spotlight during a busy week."
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God will be the judge of that. There is a much harsher judgement on the shepherds who scatter His sheep. Time will tell, but so far it isn't looking very favorable for Rick Warren.
There are lots of non-denominational churches that affiliate with the SBC for purposes of missionary work.
Ignorant Catholic here.
What is the deal with Rick Warren and the SBC? If he isn't a Southern Baptist, what is the theological difference between him and the Convention, little more background appreciated.
Ignorant Catholic here.
What is the deal with Rick Warren and the SBC? If he isn't a Southern Baptist, what is the theological difference between him and the Convention, little more background appreciated.
Du jour? no.
Au jus maybe.
I think that is a rather broad brush. It seems to me that in reaching out with the gospel Paul left no effective method unemployed.
For though I be free from all men, yet have I made myself servant unto all, that I might gain the more. And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law; To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law. To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some. And this I do for the gospel's sake, that I might be partaker thereof with you. (1Co 9:19-23)
I have never belonged to a Baptist church, but when I was an "unbeliever" who became open to exploring Christianity, I went to SBC churches first because I wanted to hear a no-holds-barred Christian message and the SBC, rightly or wrongly, has a reputation for delivering this. The animosity many non-Christians have toward the SBC is based on its history of asserting the Bibilical truth even when it's unpopular.
If considerations like this were limited to the choice of a name for a church it would not be a serious matter. However, the Purpose Driven Church approach (I attended a PDC seminar in the 90's, so I have heard the ideas firsthand) is based on building the majority of the church's practice and ministry around the felt needs of unbelievers. I don't believe that this is wise. The whole seeker sensitive approach, a la Willow Creek, (and I know that Warren is not affilitated with Willow Creek) reminds me of Spurgeon's sermon, "Feeding Sheep or Amusing Goats?"
My own church bases its services around traditional hymns, expository preaching (teaching through a book of the Bible, sometimes line by line) and readings from the Scriptures and the Reformed confessions. In other words, we do absolutely nothing which would currently be defined as "seeker sensitive." Nonetheless, the church is growing steadily. If we continue to grow at our current pace we will be SRO on Sunday mornings in a year or two.
I acknowledge that our growth appears to come from committed Christians who are leaving other churches which they consider too liberal or fad driven, rather than from new converts to Christianity. However, I believe in what we do because people deserve access to churches where there is theological depth and weight, and room to grow beyond initial conversion. In addition, I am skeptical about how many real conversions take place in churches that do not directly confront people with their sin and need for redemption.
Freepers who are interested in serious discussion about this and other issues in the evangelical church might be interested in Modern Reformation magazine.
www.modernreformation.org
Well some of the more fundamentalist types don't like Rick Warren's book but it seems to get the message across enough. A gay friend of mine was reading it and tossed it over his shoulder because it was 'too religious'.
>>Scripture needs a "starting point" before one can move into it? Like a prequel? Whatever did people do before PDL if that is the case?<<
You know, you need to be told what to believe before you can properly understand the Bible.
Well, considering the mumbo-jumbo his books contain, Warren would not be the one to ask about truth.
Sounds like a great church. That's a rare combination these days. Our church used to be like that. The preaching is still good, and the confessions are still there, but they have started chipping away at the music.
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