Posted on 08/23/2005 8:42:21 AM PDT by Terriergal
LAKE FOREST, Calif. - Saddleback Community Church is the largest congregation in the Southern Baptist Convention. But is it really Southern Baptist?
Pastor Rick Warren told a group of high-profile journalists in May that the 40,000-member church no longer is a member of the Southern Baptist Convention. But he retracted that statement Aug. 20, saying he misspoke.
A "transcript" of the interview, which was posted on the website of the widely respected Pew Forum for Religion and Public Life in May, was altered to delete the declaration at Warren's request, a Pew spokesman said. The revised "transcript" does not indicate it was altered and no explanation is offered on the website.
Warren told Associated Baptist Press Aug. 20: "I'm Southern Baptist. Our church is Southern Baptist. And we are a leader in SBC missions support in our state."
In the original May 23 interview, Warren responded to a question by Rebecca Haggerty of NBC's "Dateline," who asked in what denomination he grew up.
Warren responded: "My father was a Baptist pastor. I grew up in little tiny churches of less than 50 people. I call myself an evangelical. We are - "
Haggerty apparently interrupted with another question: "Your church is not a Baptist church?"
Warren responded: "No - it was. In the early years, when we first got started, it was a part of the Southern Baptist Convention. One out of ten churches in America is an SBC church, and the reason the denomination's so big is that every church is totally independent. The denomination has no control over it. So basically we cooperated with them in their missions program, but now we're doing our own missions program."
The altered transcript, on the other hand, ends the quotation with "I call myself an evangelical." It then jumps to the next question by Haggerty, on a different topic.
Burke Olsen, a spokesman for the Pew Forum, told Associated Baptist Press the response was edited out at the request of Warren or his representative. Asked if such alterations are made routinely without any acknowledgement in the transcript, Olsen said, "Our longstanding policy is to let speakers change anything they want to in a transcript."
In a later email, Olsen added, "The Pew Forum gives its event speakers the opportunity to review the transcripts of their remarks. The transcript currently posted on the Forum's website has been reviewed and approved by Rick Warren. Anyone seeking additional comments should contact Mr. Warren's office directly."
Warren told ABP he missed a chance to change the quote in the first transcript because he was traveling and too busy to review it. "Bad idea!" he said. "... When I read the transcript, I was horrified!"
Warren, whose recent book "The Purpose-Driven Life" has sold a record 20 million copies, later asked Pew to change the quote, which the organization did. But not before the transcript got passed around among some Southern Baptists, stirring discussion on several Internet chatrooms and weblogs.
Ryan DeBarr, a Southern Baptist from Louisville, commented on Warren's apparent departure from the SBC. "...[I]f he feels out of place in the convention, then I think it's a good move for all sides," he wrote on his blog, ryandebarr.com. "I can appreciate a person who stands by their convictions. Disagreement isn't always a bad thing, if it's handled correctly, and I hope this will be."
The rumor of Saddleback's departure from the Southern Baptist Convention took on more credence after the July Baptist World Alliance meeting in England, where Warren, a keynote speaker, disagreed publicly with the SBC's withdrawal from BWA.
Saddleback Community Church, started by Warren and his wife, Kay, in 1980, has always downplayed its denominational affiliation because of what Warren calls "widespread misperceptions" about Southern Baptists. Nothing on the church website mentions the SBC, and Warren admits many people who attend the church are not aware of its SBC affiliation.
"I am not ashamed of my Southern Baptist heritage and we clearly explain in our membership class that Saddleback is affiliated both doctrinally and financially with the Southern Baptist Convention," he explained in his 1995 best seller, "The Purpose-Driven Church." The congregation decided not to promote its SBC membership so that the SBC's negative connotations wouldn't interfere with the congregation's evangelism. "Many unbelievers, particularly those with Catholic background, told me they would never even consider visiting a Southern Baptist congregation."
Saddleback claims 40,000 members and regular attenders, which would make it the largest church in the country. In 2004 the church gave $150,000 through the California Southern Baptist Convention, which qualifies them as a California Baptist and Southern Baptist church.
Warren said he misunderstood Haggerty's question during the May interview, which included journalists from ABC, NBC, National Public Radio, The New Republic, National Review, Washington Post, New York Times and Atlantic Monthly. Warren appeared at the Pew Forum's "Faith Angle" conference in Key West, Fla., where he was asked to speak on the topic "Myths of the Modern Mega-Church."
"At one point I thought I was asked if Saddleback was identified as a Southern Baptist church, and I told the reporter 'no' because we've never had Southern Baptist in the name of our church," he told ABP in an Aug. 20 e-mail. "Reading the transcript, I saw that the question was, 'Your church is not a Baptist church?'
"In the early years of our church, we used to put the byline 'Southern Baptist Convention' under the name 'Saddleback Community Church' in our ads, business cards and brochures, but we dropped that by 1982. But for 25 years our church has been involved in the convention at the association, state and national level and has no intention of changing that."
"The bottom line is I jumbled my words in haste trying to quickly explain that Saddleback has thousands of members - over 4,500 - who've gone on short-term missions around the world. It appears that I said we're not supporting Southern Baptist missions, but, of course, that simply isn't true."
Warren said a person in the public spotlight is bound to "eventually say something he didn't mean, or intend, or even believe."
"Any individual's ministry and impact needs to be evaluated in toto, and not on the basis of one stray comment from a live (and sometime adversarial) interview," he added. "I trust that fellow Southern Baptists will realize that my and Saddleback's mission is better reflected by our faithful track record over 25 years, rather than my fatigue in the spotlight during a busy week."
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Slow during the summer. Our pastor seems to be having a steady parade of guest speakers and it's a bit off putting. Plus the orchestra is on summer break, and I miss that.
Still looking for that "just right" fit...
Well if that's true then I'm still waiting for him to change/revise his purpose driven books so people will quit using them to drive out good people who believe in the authority of SCripture and not soft-pedaling the truth. It seems there are thousands of stories of people being driven from their churches when the pastor adopts the Purpose Driven philosophy.
I don't see what one has to do with the other, but okay.
Departing now, before the PDL food fight begins anew...
>>It seems there are thousands of stories of people being driven from their churches when the pastor adopts the Purpose Driven philosophy.<<
A thousand and one. It's the main reason we left ours, and several other families left right behind us. PDL is a poisonous heresy.
Why do you say that? Have you read it?
I have, and while it's certainly not deep, I found nothing "heretical" about it.
The problem is not PDL. The problem is that people are using PDL instead of the Scriptures. PDL should be a starting point for moving further into the Scriptures.
The fact that people aren't doing that is not Warren's fault. If it wasn't PDL and Warren, there would be something and someone else taking its place.
>>Have you read it?<<
Yes. It's what constituted our "Bible Study" in the church we left.
>>I found nothing "heretical" about it.<<
I would venture that is due to our theological differences. We've all been down this road a hundred times before. It does not change my opinion as to the value of Warren's work.
>>PDL should be a starting point for moving further into the Scriptures.<<
Scripture needs a "starting point" before one can move into it? Like a prequel? Whatever did people do before PDL if that is the case?
>>If it wasn't PDL and Warren, there would be something and someone else taking its place.<<
There already are. Man-pleasing add-ons have been around for quite some time now.
Our former pastor was hoodwinked into the PDL dreams, and the church was destroyed as a result. He abandoned scripture-based preaching and adopted "alternative" means in an attempt to grow the church. Us "dissenters" left, but not after the main congregation lost about half of its members. The "alternative service" gained nothing, cost a lot of money, and the church is nothing short of a museum at this point, unable to sustain itself.
Um...Calvin's Institutes perhaps? ;-)
What happened to your church is not Rick Warren's fault.
Absolutely. I read it and PDC first. Actually if you read PDL from the point of view of someone who already knows you must REPENT and reject the filthy rags of what you thought was 'good works' before you knew Christ, PDL isn't so bad. However after reading Warren Smith's "Deceived on Purpose" I began to realize that PDL does not present the Gospel correctly, and tends to mix in New Age and occult terminology far too much to be even just 'a good Christian motivational book.'
PDC was all screwed up even at first glance as I read it. In both books Warren talks out of both sides of his mouth but it's much more noticeable in PDC. The most glaring example that comes to mind (among many many others) is "it takes mature believers to create a seeker sensitive service." and in the next sentence "thinking of other's needs before your own demonstrates incredible maturity." So which is it? It sounds like if you decide to create a 'seeker sensitive service' that makes you mature by definition. This idea is affirmed throughout the book and so carnal people get the bit in their teeth and damn the torpedoes, full speed ahead, while people who whine loud enough get catered to and people with real needs quietly go away discouraged and disillusioned with Christianity and the church.
I haven't read PDC. But not having the above in context, I don't see how the statements disagree.
In part, it is. He condones these practices.
Read the articles on transitioning an established church on his website pastors.com.
http://www.pastors.com/article.asp?ArtID=4702 (part 1)
http://www.pastors.com/article.asp?ArtID=4701 (part 2)
http://www.pastors.com/article.asp?ArtID=4768 (part 3)
http://www.pastors.com/article.asp?ArtID=4811 (part 4)
http://www.pastors.com/article.asp?ArtID=4844 (part 5)
Needs. The needs are not real needs. The needs throughout the book are defined as 'personal tastes.'
In addition the first statement "It takes mature believers to create a seeker-sensitive service" I would agree with. That means you have to be mature FIRST before you will be able to even come close to doing it 'right' without compromising the truth.
In the other statement the implication is 'if you are wanting to create a seeker sensitive service, that means you are mature, so go ahead.'
I'll read those when I get a chance.
All I'm saying is that Rick Warren is not the sole problem with the American church. If problems didn't already exist, there never would have been a market for Warren's works.
Don't get me wrong. I'm not promoting Warren. I've read one of his books (PDL). My church isn't promoting him, we're not in a 40 day program.
The message was called "God's Work To Be Done God's Way" and can be downloaded from
http://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/visit.php?lid=71
"Description: From 2 Samuel 6. Although God may honor the world's efforts, his people must only do things the way he has required -- David learned this when he tried to move the ark as the Philistines had, costing Uzzah his life. The Church must never employ the world's methods, for God will only bless the obedience of his people."
Oh I totally agree. Absolutely.
Calvin's Institutes are meant to be a pre-cursor to reading the Bible? A supplement, perhaps. An opinionated reference, perhaps - but you declared that PDL was to be a starting-point for getting into the Bible. IOW - Warren first - God second.
>>What happened to your church is not Rick Warren's fault.<<
He's not responsible for the actions he encourages? If that's the case, then I hope he's not taking any credit for the "success" that others might be finding.
Shirley you've known me long enough to know that was a joke.
IOW - Warren first - God second.
I didn't say that.
I said it should (would've been better if I'd said could) be starting point for moving people deeper into the Scripture.
It's a help. An aid. Not a replacement.
Sorry if that wasn't clear.
>>All I'm saying is that Rick Warren is not the sole problem with the American church. If problems didn't already exist, there never would have been a market for Warren's works.<<
No, not the sole problem - on that we agree. Since creation, man has been seeking ways to avoid serving God in the way He commands, and has always had his own needs as chief importance over the LORD's. There's nothing new under the sun.
However, that certainly doesn't give Warren a pass.
"could" is better than "should" in that instance.
Thank you for clarifying.
I wasn't trying to.
I just have a problem with people labeling him the antichrist du jour.
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