Posted on 08/23/2005 8:42:21 AM PDT by Terriergal
Slow during the summer. Our pastor seems to be having a steady parade of guest speakers and it's a bit off putting. Plus the orchestra is on summer break, and I miss that.
Still looking for that "just right" fit...
Well if that's true then I'm still waiting for him to change/revise his purpose driven books so people will quit using them to drive out good people who believe in the authority of SCripture and not soft-pedaling the truth. It seems there are thousands of stories of people being driven from their churches when the pastor adopts the Purpose Driven philosophy.
I don't see what one has to do with the other, but okay.
Departing now, before the PDL food fight begins anew...
>>It seems there are thousands of stories of people being driven from their churches when the pastor adopts the Purpose Driven philosophy.<<
A thousand and one. It's the main reason we left ours, and several other families left right behind us. PDL is a poisonous heresy.
Why do you say that? Have you read it?
I have, and while it's certainly not deep, I found nothing "heretical" about it.
The problem is not PDL. The problem is that people are using PDL instead of the Scriptures. PDL should be a starting point for moving further into the Scriptures.
The fact that people aren't doing that is not Warren's fault. If it wasn't PDL and Warren, there would be something and someone else taking its place.
>>Have you read it?<<
Yes. It's what constituted our "Bible Study" in the church we left.
>>I found nothing "heretical" about it.<<
I would venture that is due to our theological differences. We've all been down this road a hundred times before. It does not change my opinion as to the value of Warren's work.
>>PDL should be a starting point for moving further into the Scriptures.<<
Scripture needs a "starting point" before one can move into it? Like a prequel? Whatever did people do before PDL if that is the case?
>>If it wasn't PDL and Warren, there would be something and someone else taking its place.<<
There already are. Man-pleasing add-ons have been around for quite some time now.
Our former pastor was hoodwinked into the PDL dreams, and the church was destroyed as a result. He abandoned scripture-based preaching and adopted "alternative" means in an attempt to grow the church. Us "dissenters" left, but not after the main congregation lost about half of its members. The "alternative service" gained nothing, cost a lot of money, and the church is nothing short of a museum at this point, unable to sustain itself.
Um...Calvin's Institutes perhaps? ;-)
What happened to your church is not Rick Warren's fault.
Absolutely. I read it and PDC first. Actually if you read PDL from the point of view of someone who already knows you must REPENT and reject the filthy rags of what you thought was 'good works' before you knew Christ, PDL isn't so bad. However after reading Warren Smith's "Deceived on Purpose" I began to realize that PDL does not present the Gospel correctly, and tends to mix in New Age and occult terminology far too much to be even just 'a good Christian motivational book.'
PDC was all screwed up even at first glance as I read it. In both books Warren talks out of both sides of his mouth but it's much more noticeable in PDC. The most glaring example that comes to mind (among many many others) is "it takes mature believers to create a seeker sensitive service." and in the next sentence "thinking of other's needs before your own demonstrates incredible maturity." So which is it? It sounds like if you decide to create a 'seeker sensitive service' that makes you mature by definition. This idea is affirmed throughout the book and so carnal people get the bit in their teeth and damn the torpedoes, full speed ahead, while people who whine loud enough get catered to and people with real needs quietly go away discouraged and disillusioned with Christianity and the church.
I haven't read PDC. But not having the above in context, I don't see how the statements disagree.
In part, it is. He condones these practices.
Read the articles on transitioning an established church on his website pastors.com.
http://www.pastors.com/article.asp?ArtID=4702 (part 1)
http://www.pastors.com/article.asp?ArtID=4701 (part 2)
http://www.pastors.com/article.asp?ArtID=4768 (part 3)
http://www.pastors.com/article.asp?ArtID=4811 (part 4)
http://www.pastors.com/article.asp?ArtID=4844 (part 5)
Needs. The needs are not real needs. The needs throughout the book are defined as 'personal tastes.'
In addition the first statement "It takes mature believers to create a seeker-sensitive service" I would agree with. That means you have to be mature FIRST before you will be able to even come close to doing it 'right' without compromising the truth.
In the other statement the implication is 'if you are wanting to create a seeker sensitive service, that means you are mature, so go ahead.'
I'll read those when I get a chance.
All I'm saying is that Rick Warren is not the sole problem with the American church. If problems didn't already exist, there never would have been a market for Warren's works.
Don't get me wrong. I'm not promoting Warren. I've read one of his books (PDL). My church isn't promoting him, we're not in a 40 day program.
The message was called "God's Work To Be Done God's Way" and can be downloaded from
http://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/visit.php?lid=71
"Description: From 2 Samuel 6. Although God may honor the world's efforts, his people must only do things the way he has required -- David learned this when he tried to move the ark as the Philistines had, costing Uzzah his life. The Church must never employ the world's methods, for God will only bless the obedience of his people."
Oh I totally agree. Absolutely.
Calvin's Institutes are meant to be a pre-cursor to reading the Bible? A supplement, perhaps. An opinionated reference, perhaps - but you declared that PDL was to be a starting-point for getting into the Bible. IOW - Warren first - God second.
>>What happened to your church is not Rick Warren's fault.<<
He's not responsible for the actions he encourages? If that's the case, then I hope he's not taking any credit for the "success" that others might be finding.
Shirley you've known me long enough to know that was a joke.
IOW - Warren first - God second.
I didn't say that.
I said it should (would've been better if I'd said could) be starting point for moving people deeper into the Scripture.
It's a help. An aid. Not a replacement.
Sorry if that wasn't clear.
>>All I'm saying is that Rick Warren is not the sole problem with the American church. If problems didn't already exist, there never would have been a market for Warren's works.<<
No, not the sole problem - on that we agree. Since creation, man has been seeking ways to avoid serving God in the way He commands, and has always had his own needs as chief importance over the LORD's. There's nothing new under the sun.
However, that certainly doesn't give Warren a pass.
"could" is better than "should" in that instance.
Thank you for clarifying.
I wasn't trying to.
I just have a problem with people labeling him the antichrist du jour.
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