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To: annalex

***Conversion as an ongoing process is indeed authentically Christian***

I've heard it said that conversion is a crisis and a process.



***But how comfortable you are, as an Evangleical, with the notion that an initial act of faith needs to be a struggle sustained by unending work?***


Perhaps I misunderstand you, but I would say that a person who is struggling to secure their justification by unending work is either unconverted or has fallen away from grace...


"I testify again to every man who accepts circumcision that he is obligated to keep the whole law. You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law; you have fallen away from grace. For through the Spirit, by faith, we ourselves eagerly wait for the hope of righteousness." - Gal 5 2-6


Having said that, it is true that a person, once converted, enters into a warfare - a struggle against the world, the devil and their own fallen human nature. This struggle is unavoidable in the life of a believer because the Holy Spirit now resides in them and it is His will to "clean them up" so to speak. This is the struggle of sanctification.


Justification is not a struggle. It is a gift, freely given by grace and received using the instrument of simple, childlike faith. Justification make us instantly acceptable in God's sight - because God sees us, as it were, covered in the blood of Christ. This requires no work by us, just a simple acceptance of the death of Christ on our behalf.


(If I may be permitted to use a personal experience.) Before I was converted I knew that Christ was calling me to follow him. I struggled against this for a long time because I did not want anyone to interfere with my life. I wanted to be the master of my own ship.

But God allowed circumstances to come into my life which wrecked my "ship" and brought me to my knees. From this vantage point I was able to truly see myself, my stupidity and sinfulness. But despite all that, despite all my sin and my long rebellion against him, I realized that Christ still loved me and wanted me to follow him. He could heal my wreck of a life if I would give it to him. But there was now to be one difference - now he was to be in charge.

I accepted his offer and gave myself to him. In the days following I literally felt like I had been snatched from one universe and placed in another. I felt as if I was totally clean and that a great burden had been taken off my shoulders. I felt the the love of God shining on me like continuous sunshine. Suddenly, things that used to never bother my conscience would deeply grieve me Things that I previously thought were good I knew to be bad. Whenever I had prayed before in my life it had been dead and a drudgery. Now when I prayed I felt like I was talking to a dearest friend. I used to be apathetic to reading the Bible - now when I read it, it seemed electrified. My one goal and my one pleasure became getting to know Christ better and doing those things which pleased him.

I caught a lot of grief. A lot of people I knew began to mock me and many of my former friends dropped me. But to be honest, I was so thrilled with my new relationship with Christ that I hardly noticed.

From that initial point on, this new power that entered my life (which I recognize from the Bible to be the Holy Spirit) has stayed with me, kept me and guided me for many years. It almost seems like his power is a great magnet that continually "draws" me to God - in spite of my own many failures and weaknesses. I do not struggle to hold on to God, HE is holding me. But my job is to yield to His power, His influence, His will - especially when it goes against that which I would prefer.

So it doesn't seem to be so much an "unending work" as an "unending relationship" which is sustained by Him. His, "yoke is easy" and his "burden is light". They only time it gets hard is when I make it hard for myself by failing to choose what I know He wants me to choose.


(I would love to hear your thoughts and please forgive me for being so long-winded.)


15 posted on 08/26/2005 7:11:44 AM PDT by PetroniusMaximus
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To: PetroniusMaximus

Thank you for the detailed response.

The verse from Galatians refers to freedom from the Law of Moses and the works that law calls for. It cannot be used to promote the doctrine of salvation by faith alone.

But the about that argument is a bit specious. No knowledgeable Catholic would deny that grace is the foundation of all good works. No Protestant would recommend doing bad works. And your subsequent post illustrates that, since I find nothing to disagree with it, outside of terminological quarrel or two.

To wit: "Conversion" indeed is commonly understood as a decision for Christ, and when Catholics speak of ongoing conversion, they do not use the word in that sense. Rather, they refer to the same "struggle against the world, the devil and their own fallen human nature" that you describe. Good works is a part of that struggle. Salvation is a gift available to all believers; through works they cooperate with grace and many are justified by Christ in the end of their lives. I think that a lot of arguing about this is arguing about words, not substance, as Protestants are forever sensitive to the heresy of Pelagius, -- which, of course, is a heresy.

Now I have a few comments.

The act of conversion can be sudden, dramatic, and abrupt or it can be slow in coming and gradual. The Gospel gives examples of both. St. Paul was knocked off his horse and rendered blind. Peter professed faith, denied Christ, professed it again, and in the person of the Popes has continued in this uneven step to this day. Apostle Thomas doubted, and Christ spoke of his faith in relative terms. Others asked Christ to increase their faith. This points to conversion as properly a process, not necessarily a singular experience. In the lives of many saints, conversion is not recorded and we can assume it was not remarkable, -- just plain life in the Church since childhood. The outpouring of grace occured in their case as they received martyrdom. So it would be incorrect to presume that the dramatic conversion that the evangelical churches like to emphasize is a necessary element of justification. It is just a remark, there is no evidence of such opinion in your post.

Catholics, of course, admire dedicated life in submission to the Holy Spirit, that you have been blessed with, and recognize that the burden is light for a believer. However, -- as lives of saints demonstrate -- the burden is still, as the word implies, work -- either work of charity, or work of building up the Church, or work of suffering and sacrifice, and usually all three. There is no point in avoiding the word "work" when it is something clearly asked of us by Christ Himself.


16 posted on 08/26/2005 10:09:38 AM PDT by annalex
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