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To: Mershon

Lets see, who is actually hereticial, SSPX or the Post Vatican II church:

A "heretic" is defined in Canon 1325 as: "Any baptized person who, while retaining the name of Christian, obstinately denies or doubts any of the truths proposed for belief by the Divine and Catholic Faith".

The argument that a laymen cannot state his firm conviction that a cleric of whatever rank is a heretic is not true at all either, as St Thomas taught that it is our responsiblity to do such.

Canon 1935 state:
"Any member of the faithful may at all times denounce the offence of another, and the obligation of denouncing another becomes urgent... when one is obliged to do so in virtue of the natural law where there is danger to faith or religion or other imminent public evil." Clearly such is the case today when many through ignorance of the Faith give their allegiance to false shepherds.

Does the following below fall under heresy as defined above, leading the faithful astray, or do you really think that Lefebvre is a heretic because he happened to consecrate some Bishops as he wanted to practice the faith as handed down and not the "new brand" proposed by Vatican II. Who has caused more harm to Catholicsm, Lefebvre or the Post Vatican II Popes who are actually heretics straight off as defined by Pope Pius X (Oath against Modernism) as well as their refusal to take the Papal Oath, which if they were to take would put them in direct heresy or at least apostasy, which is a clear break from Orthodoxy and Traditional teaching

As Bishop Karol Wojtyla, of Crakow:
1. He was a student of the heretical existentialist Jacques Maritain.
2. He gutted the schema on Communism at Vatican II.
3. He allowed Protestant Evangelist Billy Graham speak at his cathedral.
As Pope John Paul II:
1. On May 4, 1980, he presided from a straw hut over an ordination ceremony and native Mass of people undulating to the rhythm of tomtoms, accompanied by accordians and guitars.
2. In February 1982, he presided over a "dance" Mass in Libreville.
3. On December 11, 1983, he preached in a Lutheran church at Rome.
4. On May 8, 1984, he presided over a Mass in Papua-New Guinea at which male and female dancers, nude from the waist up, danced; an aboriginal woman, also nude from the waist up, read the Epistle.
5. In September 1984, he presided over a Mass in Canada at which a pagan Indian chief invoked the Great Spirit and presented the pope at the Offertory with an eagle feather dipped in blood.
6. In 1985, he told 50,000 Moslems in Morocco: "We and you believe in the same God, the one God and the only God."
7. In August 1985, he presided over "dance" Masses in Cameroon and Garoua.
8. On August 8, 1985, he visited Togo and prayed in a "Sacred Forest" consecrated to the worship of pagan gods and participated in a pagan initiation ritual in a grove sacred to the pagan animists.
9. In 1986, he presided over a Mass in Fiji at which the thurifer was an aboriginal dressed only in a loin-cloth; he is said to have witnessed there a pagan animal sacrifice.
10. In February 2, 1986, he was marked with cow dung, the "Tilac," the sign of the adorers of the pagan goddess Shiva, by a Hindu priestess at Bombay.
11. On June 24, 1986, he sat with Grand Rabbi Elio Toaff in the sanctuary of the Jewish synagogue at Rome and prayed for the coming of the Messias.
12. On October 27, 1986, he participated in an ecumenical prayer meeting at Assisi, Italy, during which an image of Buddha was placed on top of the tabernacle. He again brought together Christian, Muslim, and Jewish leaders in Assisi on January 9-10, 1993, to pray for an end to the war with the Mohammedan Bosnians, and on January 24, 2002, for yet another "ecumenical prayer meeting" for "peace" with the Mohammedan terrorist leader Osama bin Laden. This time the leaders included not just the usual Eastern Orthodox, Protestants, and Jews, but also leaders of "Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, Shintoism, Jianism, Confucianism, Sikhism, Zoroastrianism, and followers of Tenrikyo and African tribal religions." (Associated Press)
13. On February 4, 1993, he engaged in dialogues with the high priests and witch doctors of Voodoo.
14. In 1994, he smeared the pitch from a native tree on his face instead of incensing the altar during a beatification ceremony in Australia.
15. In 1995, he approved the building of the first Mohammedan minaret in Rome.
16. On April 6, 1997, he recited the Credo without the Filioque on the occasion of the 1700th anniversary of the Constantinople I Council and on ecumenical occasions. (Eastern Catholic Life)
17. In 1998, he gave communion, at a private Mass in the Vatican, to the late Rev. Sheila Brown, who had only shortly before been ordained an Anglican priestess and who, at that Mass, wore her "Roman" collar.
18. On November 23, 1998, he shared the altar of St. Peter's with bare-chested, bare-footed tribesmen from Oceania holding spears, "searching for new impulses." (Associated Press)
19. In 1999, he gave communion to several Lutheran bishops who were his guests during a mass in the pope's private chapel in the Vatican. (London Tablet)
20. On June 1, 1999, he end of an audience, he bowed to the Muslim holy book, the Koran, presented to him by a delegation, and he kissed it as a sign of respect. The photo of that gesture has been shown repeatedly on Iraqui television. (June 1, 1999, Catholic News Service)
21. On January 18, 2000, he allowed Rev. George Carey, the Anglican Archbishop of Canterbury and Eastern Orthodox Metropolitan Athanasius to participate in their official capacities at the opening of the Holy Door.


35 posted on 08/16/2005 11:43:29 AM PDT by BulldogCatholic
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To: BulldogCatholic

38 posted on 08/16/2005 11:52:05 AM PDT by JohnnyZ ("I believe abortion should be safe and legal in this country." -- Mitt Romney)
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To: BulldogCatholic

A "heretic" is defined in Canon 1325 as: "Any baptized person who, while retaining the name of Christian, obstinately denies or doubts any of the truths proposed for belief by the Divine and Catholic Faith".

None of the things you have listed can be considered an obstinate denial of the Faith. And if you have read ANY of my posts, you would realize I have argued that, as far as I know, the word "heretic" has never been used by the Vatican, any Pope, nor Vatican dicastery, against Archbishop Lefebvre.

However, your posting of these infringements of prudence (in your opinion) could be seen as giving scandal to those weaker in the Faith. To give scandal purposely is considered grave matter, and thus potentially a mortal sin. I have spent much time defending Archbishop Lefebvre against unreasonable attacks, but I am not ever going to condone ordaining bishops against the express will of the Holy Father.

For that, you may view me as an enemy, but you may want to read on what is doctrine, vs. discipline, vs. dogma, etc., before you go around accusing the former Holy Father of heresy.

If he was an obstinate heretic, that makes you a sede, NOT an SSPX adherent.


39 posted on 08/16/2005 11:57:53 AM PDT by Mershon
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To: BulldogCatholic
Re 35: I don't believe anyone has accused SSPX of being heretical. As critical of them as I have been I see them as plainly schismatic not heretical. I know of no one who has ever made a credible charge of heresy against SSPX. With regards your litany of charges against the late pontiff, that vast majority of those do not constitute anything more serious that poor taste. Admittedly, a few are cause for concern. But the only one that could really come close to a formal statement of heresy would be your # 6. And that may have been the result of an excess of enthusiasm. If we are all to be burned at the stake every time we state something regarding the faith that is false either through ignorance or an ill advised enthusiasm then there will be a lot of human torches. This does not however excuse his comments. I think JP II was often scandalously casual in his obligation to defend the truth of the Catholic Faith in relation to other confessions. But I simply do not see that as rising to formal heresy. Most of your litany of alleged sins do not even come close to heresy, and in my opinion none actually meet the definition. "Any baptized person who, while retaining the name of Christian, obstinately denies or doubts any of the truths proposed for belief by the Divine and Catholic Faith".

Finally I would also point out that the Pontiff is according to canon law the supreme authority in the Church. He is as such not subject to the judgments of others.
43 posted on 08/16/2005 12:28:14 PM PDT by jec1ny (Adjutorium nostrum in nomine Domine Qui fecit caelum et terram.)
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To: BulldogCatholic
Stealing without attribution again? Ever hear that stealing some else's work without attribution is a mortal sin?

I mentioned this before in order to warn you about good posting manners, here and at other reputable places. Looks like you didn't heed the warning.

The second half of your post was lifted from:
http://www.traditio.com/comment/com0202.htm

This was posted without any form of attribution.

Most of these were debunked before. Some were amazing exaggerations.
46 posted on 08/16/2005 1:09:06 PM PDT by Dominick ("Freedom consists not in doing what we like, but in having the right to do what we ought." - JP II)
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