Catholic Caucus: Daily Mass Readings, 08-10-05, Feast of St. Lawrence, deacon & martyr

USCCB.org/New American Bible ^ | 08-10-05 | New American Bible

[Graves]

ping to #55. Interesting and informative discussion.

[annalex]

I agree with every mode of veneration and respect given the Holy Scripture, the saints, and the icons, and I understand that Christ is worshiped in a different sense than the above are venerated. Nevertheless, As Kosta says, "we don't worship the picture", even of Christ. His previous post (55) created an impression that the icon of Christ is worshiped, and that is now clarified to everyone's satisfaction.

Graves: Pre or post A.D. 1054 canons?

I don't know if canons existed in the West prior to 1054, but evidently, at the time Michelangelo painted the Sistine Chapel, his work was sanctioned by the popes, and I never heard of any prohibition on the images of the Father in operation today in the West.

Kosta50: making a Cross, a Gospel, or an icon something to "decorate" one's room and call it "art."

If a Catholic thinks of a crucifix in his room a decoration, he is commiting a sacrilege. But it is not the same as making Christ or other Christian topics subject of serious art, because the purpose of serious art is not to decorate, but to communicate the truth.

[Lady In Blue]

Salvation, I messed up. I meant to post my article on August 13th and not today. Sorry about that.

[Graves]

"Michelangelo..., his work was sanctioned by the popes"

That does not evidence a canon but either ignorance of a canon or a decision to ignore the canon. Remember, the canon itself is a principle, either written or not written.

For reasons of economy (meaning for the sake of the smooth operation of the household of Christ), a canon might be ignored. As St. Nicodemus of the Holy Mountain(I think), pointed out, however, observance of the holy canons is the economy of the Church.

[annalex]

True. However, if there was a canon in the West at some point, it was either systematically ignored or rescinded by the popes, since Rome became a chief sponsor of non-canonical art in the West in the High Middle Ages if not sooner.

[Graves]

"... However, if there was a canon in the West at some point, it was either systematically ignored or rescinded by the popes..."

Check out Western iconography pre and post A.D. 1054.

[biblewonk]

Yes it's all part of the Catholic definition of worship and venerate. Every conceivable worshipful act is called veneration when it is not aimed at God but at an idol, therefore, it is technically impossible to be idolatrous within Catholicism. Satan is very clever in making up religions, especially when he has the bible to use.

[annalex]

The difference is not in words, but in the disposition of the Christian. If he is kissing the icon thinking the icon is God, he is committing idolatry. If he is kissing the icon because it gives his an image of Christ or the saints, he is not.

[biblewonk]

The difference is not in words, but in the disposition of the Christian. If he is kissing the icon thinking the icon is God, he is committing idolatry. If he is kissing the icon because it gives his an image of Christ or the saints, he is not.

Where does it say to make "icons" in the bible and to kiss or curtsie or anything else before them as part of Christian worship?

[annalex]

Let's assume it doesn't. How's your prayer life coming?

Our Father
Who art in Heaven
Hallowed be Thy name
Thy kingdom come
Thy will be done
On earth as it is in Heaven
Give us this day our daily bread
And forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who tresspass agains us
And lead us not into temptation
But deliver us from evil


Hail Mary, full of grace
The Lord is with you
Blessed art thou among women
And blessed is the fruit of your womb Jesus
Holy Mary, Mother of God
Pray for us sinners
Now and at the hour of our death


O Jesus
Forgive us our sins
Save us from the fires of hell
Lead all souls to Heaven
Especially those who have most need of your mercy.


In the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Ghost Amen