Posted on 08/01/2005 8:16:45 PM PDT by buckeyesrule
Wrong question, Corin. The question is why does it please Him to elect whom He does and not others. To imply that the elect were chosen because they pleased Him is contrary both to the Reformed view and to Scripture.
There is none except God chose to save some for whatever reason he chooses to his glory.
It is not based on anything in the people; that is all we know. We don't fully know why.
Unlike with Arminianism, Calvinism does have all people equal. We are all the same, and God simply chose to save some of those who were dead for his glory.
Scripture does not tell us why beyond the fact that it pleases Him to choose as He has, and that the choice was not made based on any condition we met.
Only because you can't answer it.
And yet some are more equal than others...
You have the exact same problem with why some to choose to follow Christ and others don't from your perspective. Did God make some more intelligent or spiritually discerning than others? The argument you have for WHY someone chooses to follow our Lord Jesus either comes down to the working of the Spirit or the WORK of one's own choice.
Have a good day boys. I need to get back to work.
Noooo...because you asked why some pleased Him more than others (the implication being that their pleasing Him led Him to choose them), and that is not what we're saying. I assumed you misspoke so I attempted to correct for clarity.
God chooses on the basis of faith in Christ.
The bible tells us that.
You two are again arguing over whether God regenerates due to irresistible grace before we believe or whether we believe due to prevenient grace and then are regenerated.
Answer that question and you win the prize.
*** And yet some are more equal than others...***
Ok you. Stop with the barnyard jokes!
;)
I take it then that you consider yourself more holy and humble than the guy coughing in the pew next to you?
***... more holy and humble than the guy coughing in the pew next to you?***
LOL!
No, I've got the same issues I spoke to. But I've read enough into Church history to know that something is dreadfully wrong with the current state of the Church.
Do you think it might be because he's the pastor of a megachurch?
And things were different when? When people were obligated by law to attend services and to be respectful?
If you don't like the state of the church, then change it. Start your own church. Make it mandatory that everyone act holier than they are.
Don't throw blanket accusations out against everyone sitting in the pews. The fact is that the Church is as it is. Imperfect. It is as good as its members or as bad as its members.
I don't believe it does, and I believe that were it true God indeed would be a respector of persons. "You did this and he did not, therefore I will choose you and not him."
You two are again arguing over whether God regenerates due to irresistible grace before we believe or whether we believe due to prevenient grace and then are regenerated. Answer that question and you win the prize.
No, not really. While that is related, the core issue right now is why God loves some men differently than others. I don't think it is at all Scripturally tenable to state that God loves all men the same in every sense. The question then becomes what is the extent of the difference in His love for some over others and what (if any) objective basis is there for that difference.
Actually I believe I quite clearly sided with MacArthur and Calvin on this one.
But you are in the minority on this thread.
Faith.
Maybe they didn't like the PowerPoint presentation...
I think this is the heart of the message.
God is not obligated to love anyone, he choses to love. If he chooses to love some what do we say of the others?
God chose greek for the NT language because it is a very specific language. it gives greater distinction to the language . As an example one might "love" pizza, but one still throws it in the trash to be burned up. One does not have sexual desires for the pizza or love it like a spouse or friend.
God saw to it we understood the depth of Christ's love of the elect Therefore, God clearly distinguishes agape, the kind of love Christ taught and showed, from storge (natural affection or liking), eros (sexual desire), and philia (friendship).
God has a general love all his creation, we call what he gave as evidence of that 'general grace" The creation all benefits from the sun rising in the morning and the soft rain on our face. Look around and see the blessings bestowed on the non elect . David oft time lamented on that ( that the evil seem to prosper)
But that is not agape love. That is not a love one dies for.That is a general love and care for His creations which He bestows for HIS glory, even if the recipient does not see it.
If God held the same agape love for all men then he would have saved them all.
If scripture tells us God loves who He chooses then Mac Arthur needs to take it to the next level and know that God hates who He chooses also.
Scripture is clear that there are men God hates. That hate is an absence of agape love, not general grace.
Did God love all those he drown in the flood, or destroyed in Sodom?
We might ask what kind of love is that ? We might ask why does God send part of the creation to burn for eternity , that is NOT agape love.
The word of God distinguishes Gods feelings with the word hate.as follows
Mac needs to deal with all the scripture that people like Pink did and then come back
GOD HATES ALL WORKERS OF INIQUITY” Psalms 5:5
: Leviticus 20:23: “And ye shall not walk in the manners of the nations which I cast out before you: for they committed all these things, and therefore I ABHORRED THEM.”
Leviticus 26:14-30: “If ye will not hearken unto Me, and will not do all these commandments; And if ye shall despise My statutes, or if your soul abhor My judgments, so that ye will not do all My commandments, but that ye break My covenant, I also will do this to you... [send plagues, famine, drought, destructive armies, wild beasts who shall devour your children, pestilence, captivity in a cruel land...] And if ye will not for all this hearken unto Me, but walk contrary to Me; Then I WILL WALK CONTRARY TO YOU IN FURY... I will destroy your high places, and cut down your images, and cast your carcasses upon the carcasses of your idols, and MY SOUL SHALL ABHOR YOU.”
Deuteronomy 18:12 “For all that do these things are an ABOMINATION TO THE LORD, and because of these abominations the Lord thy God doth drive them out from before thee.”
Deuteronomy 25:16: “...ALL THAT DO UNRIGHTEOUSLY ARE AN ABOMINATION UNTO THE LORD.”
Deuteronomy 28:62-63: “Because thou wouldest not obey the voice of the Lord thy God... it shall come to pass, that as the Lord rejoiced over you to do you good, and to multiply you; so the Lord will the Lord will REJOICE OVER YOU TO DESTROY YOU, and to bring you to nought; and ye shall be plucked from off the land whither thou goest to possess it.” (In Deuteronomy 27, 28, and 29, 124 CURSES are promised upon the Jews who refused to obey God’s commandments.)
Deuteronomy 32:16-20: “They provoked Him to jealousy with strange gods, with abominations they provoked Him to ANGER... And when the Lord saw it [people sacrificing to devils - v.17], HE ABHORRED THEM...” Psalm 2:4-9: “The Lord that sits in the heavens shall LAUGH [at rebellious men]: the Lord shall have them in derision. Then shall He speak unto them in His WRATH, and VEX THEM IN HIS SORE DISPLEASURE... [and Christ shall] break them with a rod of iron: Thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter’s vessel.”
Psalm 5:5-6: “The foolish shall not stand in Thy sight: THOU HATEST ALL WORKERS OF INIQUITY. Thou shalt destroy them that speak leasing (lies): THE LORD WILL ABHOR THE BLOODY AND DECEITFUL MAN.”
Psalm 7:11-13: “...God is ANGRY with the wicked every day. If he turn not, He will whet His sword; He hath bent His bow, and made it ready. He hath also prepared for him the instruments of death; He ordaineth His arrows against the persecutors.”
Psalm 10:3: “For the wicked... blesseth the covetous, WHOM THE LORD ABHORRETH.”
Psalm 11:5-7: “The Lord trieth the righteous: but THE WICKED AND HIM THAT LOVETH VIOLENCE HIS SOUL HATETH. Upon the wicked He shall rain snares, fire and brimstone, and an horrible tempest: this shall be the portion of their cup. For the righteous Lord loveth righteousness...”
Psalm 50:22: “Now consider this, ye that forget God, LEST I TEAR YOU IN PIECES, AND THERE BE NONE TO DELIVER.” Psalm 78:59: “When God heard this He was wroth, and GREATLY ABHORRED ISRAEL.” Psalm 106:40: “Therefore was the wrath of the Lord kindled against His people, insomuch that HE ABHORRED HIS OWN INHERITANCE.”
Proverbs 3:32-33: “For the froward is an ABOMINATION TO THE LORD... The CURSE OF THE LORD is in the house of the wicked: but He blesseth the habitation of the just.”
Proverbs 6:16-19: “These six things doth THE LORD HATE: yea, seven are AN ABOMINATION TO HIM... A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among the brethren.”
Proverbs 16:5: “Every one that is proud in heart is an ABOMINATION TO THE LORD: though hand join in hand, he shall not be unpunished.”
Proverbs 17:5: “He that justifieth the wicked, and he that condemneth the just, even they both are ABOMINATION TO THE LORD.”
Proverbs 22:14: “The soul of strange women is a deep pit: HE THAT IS ABHORRED OF THE LORD shall fall therein.”
Jeremiah 17:5: “Thus saith the Lord, CURSED BE THE MAN that trusteth in man, and maketh flesh his arm, and whose heart departeth from the Lord.”
Hosea 9:15: “All their wickedness is in Gilgal: for there I HATED THEM: for the wickedness of their doings I will drive them out of Mine house, I WILL LOVE THEM NO MORE...”
Malachi 1:3-4: “And I HATED ESAU, and laid his mountains and his heritage waste for the dragons of the wilderness...thus saith the Lord of hosts, They shall build, but I will throw down; and they shall call them, The border of wickedness, and the people AGAINST WHOM THE LORD HATH INDIGNATION FOREVER.”
Romans 9:13: “As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but ESAU HAVE I HATED.”
I Corinthians 16:22: “If any man love not the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be ANATHEMA MARANATHA [which means ACCURSED, THE LORD COMETH].”
James 4:4: “Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that friendship of the world is ENMITY (or HATRED) WITH GOD? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is an ENEMY OF GOD.”
I Peter 3:12: “For the eyes of the Lord are over the righteous, and His ears are open to their prayers: but THE FACE OF THE LORD IS AGAINST THEM THAT DO EVIL.”
Revelation 14:10-11: “[Sinners] shall drink of the wine of the WRATH OF GOD, which is poured without mixture into the cup of HIS INDIGNATION; and he shall be TORMENTED WITH FIRE AND BRIMSTONE IN THE PRESENCE OF THE HOLY ANGELS, AND IN THE PRESENCE OF THE LAMB; And the smoke of their TORMENT ascendeth up for ever and ever; and they have NO REST DAY NOR NIGHT...”
Proverbs 22:14 - The mouth of strange women is a deep pit: he that is abhorred of the LORD shall fall therein.
Lamentations 2:6 - And he hath violently taken away his tabernacle, as if it were of a garden: he hath destroyed his places of the assembly: the LORD hath caused the solemn feasts and sabbaths to be forgotten in Zion, and hath despised in the indignation of his anger the king and the priest.
Zechariah 11:8 - Three shepherds also I cut off in one month; and my soul lothed them, and their soul also abhorred me.
Psalm 10:3 - For the wicked boasteth of his heart's desire, and blesseth the covetous, whom the LORD abhorreth.
Psalm 11:5 - The LORD trieth the righteous: but the wicked and him that loveth violence his soul hateth.
Psalm 53:5 - There were they in great fear, where no fear was: for God hath scattered the bones of him that encampeth against thee: thou hast put them to shame, because God hath despised them.
Psalm 73:20 - As a dream when one awaketh; so, O Lord, when thou awakest, thou shalt despise their image.
Psalm 78:59 - When God heard this, he was wroth, and greatly abhorred Israel:
Psalm 106:40 - Therefore was the wrath of the LORD kindled against his people, insomuch that he abhorred his own inheritance.
Proverbs 6:16-19 - These six things doth the LORD hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him: A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood, An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief, A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among
Leviticus 20:23 - And ye shall not walk in the manners of the nation, which I cast out before you: for they committed all these things, and therefore I abhorred them.
Deuteronomy 32:19 - And when the LORD saw it, he abhorred them, because of the provoking of his sons, and of his daughters.
Psalm 5:6 - Thou shalt destroy them that speak leasing: the LORD will abhor the bloody and deceitful *
Psa 11:5** The LORD trieth the righteous: but the wicked and him that loveth violence his soul hateth.
Now you may attribute any meaning to the word hate you like, but it is clearly not agape love. It clearly allows God to send some to hell to burn for eternity and rejoice in the vindication of His righteousness .
God does not agape them "just as they are"
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