Posted on 07/30/2005 9:06:18 AM PDT by littlepaddle
* So, when the Greek Liturgy was translated into the then vernacular Latin, prior to the fifth century, that was the beginning of the demise of worship.
When the Church permited the Liturgy to be celebrated in the vernacular Slavonic tongue it was allowing Jesus to be dragged down?
News of their successful missionary work among the pagan Slavs was carried to Rome along with complaints against them for celebrating the rites of the Church in the heathen vernacular. In 868 Saints Cyril and Methodius were summoned to Rome by Nicholas I, but arriving there after his death they were heartily received by his successor Adrian II, who approved of their Slavonic version of the liturgy.
Nothing new under the sun except the (wrong) idea Latin is a sacred language.
As someone who is present at the Traditional Latin Mass almost every single day, and so would say Amen (that's Ah-men!) to his praise of that venerable Rite and congratulate him on his many insights into its theological and aesthetic depths, I would only caution this young and enthusiastic devotee that, as with everything in this valley of tears, the pre-Novus Ordo REALITY was often far less than the IDEAL.
What do I mean?
Well, our young friend never attended the weekday morning Mass at any parish in . . . oh, say . . . Dorchester, Massachusetts in the late 1950s . . .
The Mass was usually in black. Why? Because whenever there was a "4th class" ferial day, the Requiem Mass "cotidianum" could be said, and most parish priests took advantage of this option. Not only because of Mass intentions or devotion to the Souls in Purgatory, but because it was the SHORTEST MASS POSSIBLE to say in the old rite: no Psalm 42 at the foot of the altar, no Gloria Patris in the Introit and Lavabo, one less prayer before Holy Communion - and the readings! Look them up in your Missal.
15 to 20 minutes tops - does anyone else remember this? - the daily "requiem" - and, once I went to high school and learned Latin from the Carmelite Fathers, I realized just how HORRENDOUS was the Latin of most of the priests (except at the Scalabrini parish, where the native-born Italian priests had been praying in Latin most of their lives). For years I thought that the Irish Monsignor was remembering an old sister-in-law or housekeeper at every Mass: AGNES DALY! AGNES DAILY! AGNES DAILY!
Yes, you might say that the Daily Requiem was the Tridentine Rite's equivalent of Eucharistic Prayer II !!!
It wasn't all beautiful, all the time, dear young undergraduate! :-)
In fact, if anything, having been deprived of that ancient Rite lo these many years just might have helped bring it back with a fresh awareness of its beauty and a new devotion to offering it as it was meant to be offered!
Funny.... Jesus didn't speak Latin. And he came as a common man and fought all the traditionalists that deceived people into thinking keeping a man-made tradition would save people.
Easy, BigFinn!
Jesus didn't speak Elizabethan English either . . . and he said, "I did not come to abolish the law and the prophets but to bring them to fulfillment." And I'm sure you're aware of some of his other statements, "You are Peter and on this rock I will build my Church . . . whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven . . . whoever hears you, hears me . . . " and "When the Spirit of Truth comes who proceeds from the Father and whom the Father will send in my name, he will lead you into all truth."
And how many "common men" do you know who can heal the sick, raise the dead, and then rise themselves in the glory of resurrection?
Beware facile responses that reduce Jesus' teachings to "aw shucks" and the Holy Eucharist to grape juice and crackers.
I was born shortly before the new Mass was instituted, so I grew up in the wake of the changes. I now go to an indult, and I am gaining an appreciation for the tradition, our birthright, that was robbed from us. When I was young, the novus ordo was offered very reverently. However, through the years, it has slowly devolved as it gets further away from the anchor of the Mass of the ages. When our worship becomes less reverent, every other aspect of our Church follows it down.
While I acknowledge the validity of the Missa Normativa, I no longer prefer it, and say without hesitation that the Traditional Latin Mass is preferable, doctrinally, symbolically and stylistically.
I pray that the Holy Father soon restores the right of all priests to say it without having to ask permission.
Well, even in Tridentine days, we always did the Prayer to St. Michael the Archangel in English :-)
Jesus didn't speak Latin? In what language did He and Pilate converse? Scripture makes no mention of a translator being present.
I don't idolize 1950, 1850, 1750, 1650 or 1550 but I revere the Catholic Mass. I disdain the lutheran community gathering which is what the Novus Ordo generally is. I don't claim that Lutherans are evil..but they worship Christ in a particular way that, as a Catholic, makes me ill at ease.
That Novus Ordo catechetics downplays transubstantiation and promotes the community is natural...it's a different religion...not focused on Cavalry...focused on community, hand holding, feeling good and always keeping people ill at ease with constant changes.
Consider the discourse that Jesus had with the Roman centurion. It is very likely that that conversation took place in Latin as the centurion probably knew no other language and Jesus did as Jerusalem was a cosmopolitan city in the Roman Empire.
Did you not read any of the article? Nothing new under the sun including you missing the point of the article completely.
The Latin Mass is arguably the most beautiful religious rite I have ever witnessed.
The current Mass is pedestrian and mundane in comparison.
Another person that didn't read the article or chooses to be purposely obtuse. It's not about Latin, per say being a sacred language, but a dead language, in which meanings of words do not evolve like languages that are in current use. A language that doesn't change is best to express the Catholic faith which also does not change.
Nothing new under the sun including you missing the point of (my post)the article completely.
*aren't our exchanges always fun and productive, MurphE?
This diversity of tongues was by no means parallel to diversity of sect or religion. People who agreed entirely in faith, who were separated by no schism, nevertheless said their prayers in different languages...
In the West the whole situation is different. Greek was first used at Rome, too. About the third century the services were translated into the vulgar tongue, Latin...
It is a question how far one may speak of a special liturgical Latin language. The writers of our Collects, hymns, Prefaces, etc., wrote simply in the language of their time. The style of the various elements of the Mass and Divine Office varies greatly according to the time at which they were written. We have texts from the fourth or fifth to the twentieth century. Liturgical Latin then is simply late Christian Latin of various periods...
The principle of using Latin in church is in no way fundamental. It is a question of discipline that evolved differently in East and West, and may not be defended as either primitive or universal. The authority of the Church could change the liturgical language at any time without sacrificing any important principle. The idea of a universal tongue may seem attractive, but is contradicted by the fact that the Catholic Church uses eight or nine different liturgical languages. Latin preponderates as a result of the greater influence of the Roman patriarchate and its rite, caused by the spread of Western Europeans into new lands and the unhappy schism of so many Easterns (see Fortescue, "Orthodox Eastern Church", 431). Uniformity of rite or liturgical language has never been a Catholic ideal, nor was Latin chosen deliberately as a sacred language. Had there been any such idea the language would have been Hebrew or Greek....
*Quotations from Adrian Fortescue's RITES Catholic Encyclopedia
It is our Triune God who protects Doctrinal certitude, not a particular language. Too many calling themselves traditionalists imagine the old liturgy in Latin a panacea. It is wrong-headed to imagine a return to an old rite will set right that which is wrong. What is wrong with the world is me, and thee. And all restorations begin with metanoia, repentance, penance,humility, and obedience. It doesn't begin with a demand others change
"we prefer the ancient rite because it more accurately reflects the faith of the Church in the Mass as a propitiatory sacrifice than the new liturgy, which instead emphasizes it as a communal banquet."
Now if you would like to make an argument that the NO more accurately reflects the faith of the Church I'd be most interested to hear how you think it does.
You don't give me much to work with.
God bless the traditional latin mass and all she stands for. Rome obviously has something to fear from it, making it outlawed for over 20 years, then JPII in some sort of a cruel joke leaving it up to the liberal , mostly homosexual bishops to allow this "Indult" (or should I say Insult Mass?) which out of some 400 bishops I think less than 20% allow it, and in one church out of many. The church concelebrates with Jews, Orthodox, Protestant, has Eucharistic Hospitality sessions with Protestants where the body of Christ is given to those in Mortal sin and not even Catholic, but if you are Traditional or go to the TLM-you are banned, pushed off, the Novus Ordo priest looks at you like you have 3 heads. There is something spooky going on in the church after Vatican II, and I dont want to subscribe to conspiracy, but to replace a mass such as the TLM, at least replace it with something that makes some sense. The Novus Ordo is a watered down Episcopal Mass, even the Protestants I work with say their masses are more reverent and the sermons are much much better.
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