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To: Graves
The Patriarchate of the West subsequently left the Church and re-established itself as "The [Roman] Catholic Church".

No, the Eastern Churches subsequently left the Church and reestablished themselves as "The Orthodox Church".

I'm not sure about this test of St. Irenaeus you speak of (please quote it or link me to it)

Since, however, it would be very tedious, in such a volume as this, to reckon up the successions of all the Churches, we do put to confusion all those who, in whatever manner, whether by an evil self-pleasing, by vainglory, or by blindness and perverse opinion, assemble in unauthorized meetings; [we do this, I say,] by indicating that tradition derived from the apostles, of the very great, the very ancient, and universally known Church founded and organized at Rome by the two most glorious apostles, Peter and Paul; as also [by pointing out] the faith preached to men, which comes down to our time by means of the successions of the bishops. For it is a matter of necessity that every Church should agree with this Church, on account of its pre-eminent authority, that is, the faithful everywhere, inasmuch as the apostolical tradition has been preserved continuously by those [faithful men] who exist everywhere. (St. Irenaeus, Against Heresies, III, 3:2)

Nothing in the Tradition requires confirmation by any particular see.

Without whom [the Romans presiding in the seventh Council] a doctrine brought forward in the Church could not, even though confirmed by canonical decrees and by ecclesiastical usage, ever obtain full approval or currency. For it is they who have had assigned to them the rule in sacred things, and who have received into their hands the dignity of headship among the Apostles. (St. Nicephorus of Constantinople, Cpl. pro. s. imag. c 25)

There is nothing, however, in the acts of this council that requires anyone to believe that the Pope of Rome is infallible or that the Pope of Rome and his entire jurisdiction (the Patriarchate of the West), cannot fall into heresy.

What do you think of what I quoted, then?

Just ask any member of the Old Catholic Church of Utrecht and that Old Catholic will tell you exactly the same thing.

Old Catholics will also tell me that it's okay to ordain women. Sorry, but I'll pass.

35 posted on 08/01/2005 5:44:30 AM PDT by gbcdoj (Without His assisting grace, the law is “the letter which killeth;” - Augustine.)
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To: gbcdoj

"No, the Eastern Churches subsequently left the Church and reestablished themselves as 'The Orthodox Church'."
I guess we do not agree.

"For it is a matter of necessity that every Church should agree with this Church, on account of its pre-eminent authority, that is, the faithful everywhere, inasmuch as the apostolical tradition has been preserved continuously by those [faithful men] who exist everywhere. (St. Irenaeus, Against Heresies, III, 3:2)"
Note that this requirement is based upon the fact that, as of at that time, Rome had indeed kept the Tradition.

"Without whom [the Romans presiding in the seventh Council] a doctrine..."
Same point as above.

"What do you think of what I quoted, then?"
Irrelevant material as usual.

"Sorry, but I'll pass"
Afraid he'll clean your clock are you?


36 posted on 08/01/2005 5:53:29 AM PDT by Graves (Remember Esphigmenou - Orthodoxy or Death!)
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