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To: 1stFreedom

What happened to "throwing open the doors of the church at Vatican II by the Pope John XXIII"? What about the "new springtime both he and JPII promised?

The church lost the moral high ground at Vatican II, making it no different than your local Protestant church. Just the word "subsists" throws all that the church claimed for centuries out the window, and who proclamined that-Father Ratzinger as it was he who wanted that inserted in Lumen Gentium. But need not worry as this statement contradicted past church teachings, making it a pastoral not a doctrinal proclamation.

And the TLM is a thing of beauty and reverence-the Latin is not even an issue as you follow in your missal and the readings and sermon are in the vernacular, and after hearing the same week after week you learn what "Dominus Vobiscum" , Pax tecum, Pax vobiscum, Oremos, etc etc mean.

Vatican II sowed the seeds of error, opened the floodgates, and when your Pope even refuses to take a Papal Oath as all Vatican II popes have refused to take-How can they really be called the "Vicar of Christ"?


16 posted on 07/27/2005 11:24:14 AM PDT by BulldogCatholic
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To: BulldogCatholic
The church lost the moral high ground at Vatican II, making it no different than your local Protestant church. Just the word "subsists" throws all that the church claimed for centuries out the window, and who proclamined that-Father Ratzinger as it was he who wanted that inserted in Lumen Gentium.
The central passages about the Church's constant need of renewal as well as of the presence of Christian truth and holiness in non-Catholic communities are joined to a fundamental conciliar statement which says that the spiritual and visible entities of the Church are inseparable. The visible Church is herself also the spiritual Church, the Church of Jesus Christ. And even more strongly: this one and only Church, which is at once spiritual and earthly, is so concrete that she can be called by name: she "subsists in the Catholic Church, which is governed by the successor of Peter and the bishops in union with that successor". No translation can fully capture the sublime nuance of the Latin text in which the unconditional equation of the first conciliar drafts-the full equation between the Church of Jesus Christ and the Roman Catholic Church-is clearly set forth ...

It is not easy to describe the tension aroused by this new reminder [in Mysterium Ecclesiae] of the conciliar text. General awareness had very quickly soothed itself with the assumption that the equation between the Church of Jesus Christ and the Catholic Church was no longer valid ... It is obvious [from this] how completely the factual content of Vatican Council II has been forgotten today ... (Cardinal Ratzinger, Principles of Catholic Theology: Building Stones for a Fundamental Theology, pp. 230-2)

Do you even understand what "subsists" means? "[W]e say that those things subsist which exist in themselves, and not in another - illa enim subsistere dicimus, quae non in alio, sed in se existunt" (St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa Theologiae I, q. 29 a. 2)

17 posted on 07/27/2005 11:46:59 AM PDT by gbcdoj (Without His assisting grace, the law is “the letter which killeth;” - Augustine.)
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To: BulldogCatholic

The "aggriornamento" was about proclaiming the unchanging truths of the Catholic faith to the modern world. It was not about changing the truths of that faith. Nor were the Vatican II documents. If some have used the so-called "spirit of Vatican II" to try and change the teachings of the faith, they are abusing the same, not authentiaclly representing it. The present and previous Pope have been doing much to weed out carefully and prudently erroneous interpretations of the Vatican II Council. It would be helpful if so-called "traditionalists" reentered full communion with the successor of Peter and helped him to do so, rather than continually try to undermine the Catholic Church and promote schismatic parallel structures.


19 posted on 07/27/2005 11:58:41 AM PDT by Unam Sanctam
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