Tiff over Jesus misses the point

Birmingham Post-Herald ^ | July 24, 2005 | James L. Evans

[Graybeard58]

Theological competition between Christian groups has been part of the faith landscape from the beginning. From Gentiles to apostolic authority, from Latin to Greek Bibles, Christians always have been able to find stuff to disagree about.

A recurring source of contention has been Jesus himself. The famous creedal battles of the fourth century pitched those who believed in Jesus' absolute humanity over against those who asserted his absolute deity. The compromise, that Jesus was both fully human and fully God, allowed both sides to claim victory but also left the matter mostly unresolved.

In fact, the conflict over Jesus continues right down to our present day, albeit in a somewhat less profound form.

Recently, the Cooperative Baptist Fellowship, a pullout group at odds with the Southern Baptist Convention, came under fire for allegedly removing Jesus from their constitution. The charge stems from a proposed change in the CBF vision and purpose statement.

The original statement defined the group's purpose as "helping churches promote the Gospel of Jesus Christ." That statement was revised at the group's annual meeting to read "help churches fulfill their God-given mission."

Leaders from the Southern Baptist Convention quickly seized on the change as an example of liberal leanings among Cooperative Baptists. SBC leaders have asserted all along that the CBF was composed of liberals. Al Mohler, president of Southern Seminary, charged the CBF was sliding down the slippery slope of theological relativism by removing Jesus from the center of the group's theological identity.

Fellowship leaders thought this was a bit of the pot calling the kettle black. One CBF pastor noted that in 2000, Southern Baptists removed Jesus from the center of their identity when they rewrote the Baptist Faith and Message statement. The 1963 version of the faith statement stated Jesus is the criterion by which all Scripture was to be interpreted. The document also stated Jesus was the full and final revelation of God.

The Faith and Message statement adopted in 2000 deleted the statement about Jesus as the criterion for all Scripture interpretation and declared the Bible was the full and final revelation of God.

Not about to let the fellowship upstarts have the last word on the matter, an SBC representative pointed out the change was necessary. Liberals were using Jesus to justify all sorts of heresies like women in ministry.

Not to be outdone, fellowship leaders pointed out the Southern Baptist constitution, drafted in 1845 to allow slave owners to be missionaries, does not mention Jesus at all. All of which may serve to prove what I heard a historian say one time about Baptists. They may fight, he said, but never about anything important.

Not that Jesus is unimportant. Establishing the church's identity firmly in the purpose and mission of Jesus is the key to everything. But if this debate really were about following Jesus' example, we would be hearing more about the poor, the imprisoned, the sick and the destitute.

According to Jesus, it is caring for these "little ones" that is the mark of true discipleship.

As for the current debate, why not get two or three preachers from each of the two Baptist groups and let them fight it out with playdough at 20 paces. That way everyone could see the schoolyard level of this debate, while at the same time protect innocent bystanders from being injured by flying rhetoric.

James L. Evans is pastor of Auburn First Baptist Church.

[xJones]

The original statement defined the group's purpose as "helping churches promote the Gospel of Jesus Christ." That statement was revised at the group's annual meeting to read "help churches fulfill their God-given mission."

i supppose it would be useless to point out that without the Gospel of Jesus Christ there would be no Christianity. And what "God-given" mission will they promote? Will it be the cause of homosexuality like the Episcopalians are now experiencing?

[HighlyOpinionated]

WAR EAGLE.

(Auburn First Baptist is in Auburn, Alabama, as is Auburn University.)

We have 300 Baptist churches in a county with 17,000 people. We also have 30 Methodist Churches, 2 Presbyterian Churches, one Lutheran, one Catholic, one Unitarian, one Assembly of God, one Church of God, maybe two dozen non-denominational churches and somewhere there's a Jehovah's Witness group meeting.

So which church do you think is doing to most to meet the needs of the poor?

[Graybeard58]

By implication, that would be the Baptists.

[conservatism_IS_compassion]

So which church do you think is doing to most to meet the needs of the poor?

The one that is preaching the gospel.

[PAR35]

2 Presbyterian Churches

At least three. One PCA, One Anglo PCUSA, and one Korean PCUSA.

[PetroniusMaximus]

It is my understanding that the CBF is slowly going liberal.

[D-fendr]

And what "God-given" mission will they promote?

Not to point out the obvious too obviously, but Jesus is God.

So unless the tiff over Jesus has shaken Baptists Christology - or Trinitarianism (as the author seems to see as "compromise") - well, then I don't see the tempest here.

[Ff--150]

"So which church do you think is doing to most to meet the needs of the poor?"

Answer in the short future is: NONE!

With God raising the Body of Christ to the next level, through the Trinity Broadcasting Network, Lakewood Church, and Saddleback Church, for examples, people sowing into those Godly institutions will begin reaping huge harvests and the reapers will then be able to help the poor.

The poor will then "learn how to fish" through their donations and then the former poor can begin raising up other poor and on and on the Gospel goes.

Meanwhile, those franchise churches you named will die of old age, having outlived their original destiny.

[HighlyOpinionated]

It was a rhetorical question.

Meanwhile, those franchise churches you named will die of old age, having outlived their original destiny.

EXCEPT the Roman Catholic Church which has been with us since the Upper Room, the Apostles, and early Church Fathers. Throughout history, no matter the scandal, no matter the political regime, no matter the apostasy, the one Church which has stood the test of time, time and time again, is the Roman Catholic Church. Even with the split of the Orthodox (Greek) Church, the continuum of time has not diminished the Apostolic succession of Peter, the first Pope.

If in doubt, check here.

[Frumanchu]

A recurring source of contention has been Jesus himself. The famous creedal battles of the fourth century pitched those who believed in Jesus' absolute humanity over against those who asserted his absolute deity. The compromise, that Jesus was both fully human and fully God, allowed both sides to claim victory but also left the matter mostly unresolved.

Umm...that's not accurate. The councils did not settle on a compromise between two schools of thought. They clarified and more clearly delineated what was already accepted as orthodoxy in the church defending it against both those who argued Christ's humanity to the exclusion of His divinity and vice versa.

[JamesP81]

With God raising the Body of Christ to the next level, through the Trinity Broadcasting Network, Lakewood Church, and Saddleback Church, for examples, people sowing into those Godly institutions will begin reaping huge harvests and the reapers will then be able to help the poor.

Before you get too smart for your own pants their, I would remind you that Lakewood Church is the largest Assembly of God in North America and Saddleback Church is the largest Southern Baptist Convention church in North America.

People are going to be people. There are going to be disagreements. This is not an excuse to abandon a church with real christian principles.

[Graybeard58]

Well, at least since Emperor Constantine:

A year after ascending the throne, Constantine convened the Council of Nicaea. Its declared purpose was to decide on theological disputes which had arisen concerning the essence and nature of Christ. However, the emperor took advantage of the gathering to determine the order and organization of the church. The Nicaean Council established a special, privileged, status for the Bishop of Jerusalem. At the same time, Constantine uncovered the site of the crucifixion, burial, and resurrection of Jesus in Jerusalem, and built on it the Church of the Holy Sepulcher. As a result of his policy combining unequivocal legislation giving preference to Christianity with impressive building projects Jerusalem was transformed from a marginal pagan town into a flourishing Christian city and became a powerful magnet for pilgrims from the whole Roman Empire.

http://jeru.huji.ac.il/ed31.htm

[Ff--150]

"Before you get too smart for your own pants their, I would remind you that Lakewood Church is the largest Assembly of God in North America and Saddleback Church is the largest Southern Baptist Convention church in North America."

ROTFL!!! Before

>>>>>YOU<<<<<<

get too smart for your pants their[sic], better double check...

"This is not an excuse to abandon a church with real christian principles."

We'll have an AMEN there; however, "real christian principles" is only a matter of opinion--when you can get the Real Deal 24/7/365 on your boob tube :o).

[Ff--150]

"It was a rhetorical question."

Gotta watch out: rhetorical questions sometimes kickback with tough Truth :-)!!

Just prove me wrong:
Just send $10, 20 50 bucks to TBN, Osteen, or Warren--better yet, to some televanglist you DESPISE, "knowing" that is silly, stupid or whatever.

Onehundred fold for $10 = $1000; $20 = $2000; $50 = $5000. Then, have your excuses handy as to how you got so "lucky."

[An aside: it's just as nerve-wracking when you've expirenced the 100x time after time, because the methods used are so unexpected to get your harvests to you. My sowing is into five figures and that takes FAITH, LOL!!!!]

[siunevada]

The famous creedal battles of the fourth century pitched those who believed in Jesus' absolute humanity over against those who asserted his absolute deity. The compromise, that Jesus was both fully human and fully God, allowed both sides to claim victory but also left the matter mostly unresolved.

Oy vey! Two heresies compromise and call it the truth? That doesn't sound right.

[jo kus]

"So which church do you think is doing to most to meet the needs of the poor?"

Your point leads to a false conclusion.

Rather than list the number of churches of a particular denomination, how about listing the number of participants affiliated?

If each Baptist church consisted of 10 people, and the 30 Methodist churches consisted of 101 people, your implication would be incorrect.

[jo kus]

Oops,

Ignore my last post, I see you later post that your statement was a rhetorical question.

by the way, nice pictures.

Regards

[D-fendr]

I'm going to assume your post was serious, please forgive if it wasn't.

Trinity Broadcasting Network… The poor will then "learn how to fish" through their donations…

I think these folks are out to put fish in their own pockets, taking it out of the poor's. They look like one big fund raiser. To me it's offensive to hear, "send me money and God will make you rich." You think they help the poor?

[HighlyOpinionated]

You wrote: [An aside: it's just as nerve-wracking when you've expirenced the 100x time after time, because the methods used are so unexpected to get your harvests to you. My sowing is into five figures and that takes FAITH, LOL!!!!]
+ + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + +

Are you trying to say that the closer one is to God, the more money God will bless that person with?

If it were true that the closer one is to God, the richer one is, then all the Apostles would have been living in castles.

As I recall, Christ said in Matthew 5:3 Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. 4 Blessed are the meek: for they shall possess the land. 5 Blessed are they that mourn: for they shall be comforted.

Note: 3 "The poor in spirit"... That is, the humble; and they whose spirit is not set upon riches.

6 Blessed are they that hunger and thirst after justice: for they shall have their fill. 7 Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy. 8 Blessed are the clean of heart: for they shall see God. 9 Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called children of God. 10 Blessed are they that suffer persecution for justice' sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

11 Blessed are ye when they shall revile you, and persecute you, and speak all that is evil against you, untruly, for my sake: 12 Be glad and rejoice, for your reward is very great in heaven. For so they persecuted the prophets that were before you.