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To: Graves
Neither looks to me to be all that different from the Byzantine Rite to which you refer. But maybe I'm missing something. What exactly is your point?

My point is that the native liturgies in Alexandria and Antioch were "Byzantinized" to a far greater extent than the Eastern Catholics were Latinized. For instance the Melchites. And then this little historical gem:

Theodore Balsamon says that at that time a certain Mark, Patriarch of Alexandria, came to Constantinople and there went on celebrating the Liturgy of his own Church. The Byzantines told him that the use of the most holy Ecumenical throne was different, and that the Emperor had already commanded all Orthodox Church throughout the world to follow that of the Imperial city. So Mark apologized for not having known about this law and conformed to the Byzantine use (P.G., CXXXVIII, 954)
That's from the Catholic Encyclopedia article on the Alexandrine Liturgy. If you dispute their facts and if someone has the original text of Balsamon, by all means post it here for all to see.
47 posted on 07/23/2005 11:01:26 AM PDT by Claud
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To: Claud; kosta50; FormerLib; Agrarian; MarMema

Theodore Balsamon says that at that time a certain Mark, Patriarch of Alexandria, came to Constantinople and there went on celebrating the Liturgy of his own Church. The Byzantines told him that the use of the most holy Ecumenical throne was different, and that the Emperor had already commanded all Orthodox Church throughout the world to follow that of the Imperial city. So Mark apologized for not having known about this law and conformed to the Byzantine use (P.G., CXXXVIII, 954)

I see your point. Same exact thing happened in the West during the reign of Charlemagne, and with much more catastrophic effects. It really deserves a seperate string. The Synod of Milan has made a big issue out this. See http://www.odox.net/Liturgy-Western-Culture.htm

I am not saying Milan is right about everything because, personally, I find the Western Rite much too Augustinian for my taste. And I do believe the culprit for that is Alcuin of York. But at least Milan rightly points to the past Orthodoxy of the West.


48 posted on 07/23/2005 11:37:17 AM PDT by Graves (Remember Esphigmenou - Orthodoxy or Death!)
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To: Claud
After the defeat of Constantinople in 1453 and the Muslim elimination of the unionists and their supporters, the Ottomans enhanced the Ecumenical Patriarch's authority by making him the civil leader of the multi-ethnic Orthodox community within the Empire. This gave him certain authority over the Greek Patriarchates of Alexandria, Antioch and Jerusalem, which were also in Ottoman territory. When the Greeks rebelled against Islamic rule in 1821, the Sultan held Patriarch Gregory V personally responsible and had him hanged at the gates of the patriarchal compound. 2 metropolitans and 12 bishops followed him to the gallows.

In 1832 an independent Greek state was established, and a separate authocephalous Church of Greece the next year.

The Orthodox Patriarchs of Alexandria, lived mostly in Istanbul and were appointed by the Ecumenical Patriarch. Only in 1846, with the election of Patriarch Hierotheos I, did the Patriarchs consistently reside in Egypt. The EPat's involvement in Alexandria's affairs ended formally in 1858, however it wasn't until 1926 that Patriarch Melitios II compiled the Bylaws of the Patriarchate and submitted them to the new Egyptian government for approval. Former Anglican Reuben Spartas, was responsible in the 1930's of helping to bring indigenous Africans into the Patriarchate, which had been primarily Greek.

It wasn't until 1898 that the last Greek Patriarch was deposed in the Patriarchate of Antioch, which had been transfered to Damascus. In the 1940's the Patriarchate began to renew its Arab character and established a seminary, near Tripoli, Lebanon, in 1970.

The Patriarch of Jerusalem was Greek until he was deposed by the Arab Christian population, this year. The Ottomans organized the Patriarchate definitively in the mid-19th century, after many Christian struggles to exercise control over the sacred sites. Since 1534 all the Patriarchs of Jerusalem have been ethnic Greeks. Presently, Patriarch and bishops are drawn from the Brotherhood of the Holy Sepulcher, a Jerusalem monastic community founded in the 16th century that has 90 Greek and 4 Arab members. The married clergy are entirely drawn from the local Arab population which explains why the Divine Liturgy is celebrated in Greek in the monasteries and Patriarchate and in Arabic in the parishes.

The Orthodox Church of Mt. Sinai has an agreement with the Greek and Egyptian governments that allow the community to receive a continuous number of Greek monks, which form the overwhelming portion of clergy.

All of the clergy of the Orthodox Church of Japan, however, are now of Japanese origin.
Taken from The Eastern Christian Churches, R. Roberson.
50 posted on 07/23/2005 12:12:26 PM PDT by sanormal
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