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To: kosta50
There are three Orthodox parishes in a town not 10 miles from where I'm typing this . . . . none of the parishioners of any of the three would step foot within or grant Holy Communion to the members of the others. Your Church looks great on paper, sounds great in theory. It's just nothing I recognize as "one, holy, catholic and apostolic." By the way, however, I think you're right that the overtures toward some kind of unity are coming from the Roman Catholic side, and I presume that is because Pope Benedict XVI sincerely believes what he said to the Cardinal Electors at Mass in the Sistine Chapel the morning after his election to the See of Peter:

"Nourished and sustained by the Eucharist, Catholics cannot but feel encouraged to strive for the full unity for which Christ expressed so ardent a hope in the Upper Room. The Successor of Peter knows that he must make himself especially responsible for his Divine Master's supreme aspiration. Indeed, he is entrusted with the task of strengthening his brethren (cf Luke 22:32). With full awareness, therefore, at the beginning of his ministry in the Church of Rome which Peter bathed in his blood, Peter's current Successor takes on as his primary task the duty to work tirelessly to rebuild the full and visible unity of all Christ's believers. This is his ambition, his impelling duty. He is aware that good intentions do not suffice for this. Concrete gestures that enter hearts and stir consciences are essential, inspiring in everyone that inner conversion that is the prerequisite for all ecumenical progress. Theological dialogue is necessary; the investigation for the historical reasons for the decisions made in the past is also indispensable. But what is most urgently needed is that 'purification of memory', so often recalled by John Paul II, which alone can dispose souls to accept the full truth of Christ. Each one of us must come before him, the supreme judge of every living person, and render an account to him of all we have done or have failed to do to further the great good of the full and visible unity of all his disciples. The current Successor Peter is allowing himself to be called in the first person by this requirement and is prepared to do everything in his power to promote the fundamental cause of ecumenism. Following the example of his Predecessors, he is fully determined to encourage every initiative that seems appropriate for promoting contacts and understanding with the representatives of the different Churches and Ecclesial Communities. Indeed, on this occasion he sends them his most cordial greetings in Christ, the one Lord of us all."

Nor is he speaking, as you claim, of "convincing the Orthodox to 'return' to the Church." Indeed, Pope Benedict said just the opposite to the delegation from the Ecumenical Patriarch that had come to Rome for the celebration of the Solemnity of Saints Peter and Paul. The message is worth quoting at length:

The unity that we seek is neither absorption nor fusion but respect for the multiform fullness of the Church, which must always be, in conformity with the desire of her Founder, Jesus Christ, one, holy, catholic and apostolic. This recommendation finds full resonance in the intangible profession of faith of all Christians, the Creed worked out by the Fathers of the Ecumenical Councils of Nicea and Constantinople (cf. Slavorum Apostoli, n. 15).

The Vatican Council clearly recognized the treasure that the East possesses and from which the West "has taken many things"; it recalled that the fundamental dogmas of the Christian faith were defined by the Ecumenical Councils celebrated in the East; it urged the faithful not to forget all the suffering the East had to bear to preserve its faith. The Council's teaching has inspired love and respect for the Eastern Tradition, it has encouraged people to consider the East and the West as mosaic pieces that together make up the resplendent face of the Pantocrator, whose hand blessed the whole Oikoumene.

The Council went even further, saying: "It is hardly surprising, then, if sometimes one tradition has come nearer to a full appreciation of some aspects of a mystery of revelation than the other, or has expressed them better. In such cases, these various theological formulations are often to be considered complementary rather than conflicting" (Unitatis Redintegratio, n. 17). Dear Brothers, I ask you to convey my greetings to the Ecumenical Patriarch, telling him of my resolution to persevere with firm determination in the search for full unity among all Christians. Let us continue together on the path of communion and together take new steps and make new gestures that lead to overcoming the remaining misunderstandings and divisions, keeping in mind that "in order to restore communion and unity... one must "impose no burden beyond what is indispensable' (Acts 15: 28)" (ibid., n. 18).

Heartfelt thanks to each one of you for coming from the East to pay homage to Sts Peter and Paul, whom we venerate together. May their constant protection and above all the motherly intercession of the Theotokos always guide our steps. "Brothers, may the favour of Our Lord Jesus Christ be with your spirit" (Gal 6: 18).

All that having been said, I must sadly admit that, every time I come to Free Republic and read the Orthodox postings, I wonder why the Holy Father would even bother? We surely don't need the "numbers" or the money. And do we need the grief? I mean, from the simple crude and rude behavior and words of Alexy II towards Pope John Paul II and Cardinal Kasper (with whom he would not even deign to meet), to the Greek bishops who told John Paul that he needed to repent and do penance before visiting Greece, to the nasty crabby folks posting on here . . . would any of this be "enriching" Roman Catholicism? It's hard to see how. In fact, an Orthodox bishop once said to me, as we walked toward a parish he was visiting, and saw a group of women waving to him and calling out "Vladika!" - he said to me, "You're a liturgist, I know ... so you are familiar with our 'Office of the Myrrh-Bearing Women'?" When I said yes, he chuckled, "Well, those are ANOTHER one of our traditions, 'The Venom-Bearing Women'! That particular group is the source of endless gossip about their beloved Vladika. Do you need a few extra cooks at YOUR parish bazaar? You could take them!"

As I've said before on here, I once saw pictures of Pope Paul VI kneeling to kiss the feet of the Patriarch's delegation in Saint Peter's Basilica. Apparently we need to kiss even other things and even more frequently! But, seroiusly, whenever I read the postings here, I just don't see what for - unless . . . unless it is truly to try to undergo the "conversion of heart" the Holy Father speaks about as the "necessary pre-requisite" to disposing ourselves to work toward the fulfillment of Our Lord's prayer "that all may be one."

46 posted on 07/23/2005 10:50:40 AM PDT by TaxachusettsMan
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To: TaxachusettsMan
My feelings exactly.

I can't see a cynical reason for the Roman Catholic Church to want unity with the Orthodox. We don't need the money, the numbers, or the headache.

And yet the Pope routinely stretches out his hand in friendship, only to have it slapped away. Publicly slapped. With presses printing and cameras clicking. The Pope answers this abuse with continued charity and good will. And yet again, he receives grief and humiliation for his efforts. But he always goes back for more.

In this way he is so much like Our Lord, it is not a grandiose thing at all to say he truly is Christ on Earth. We can be so proud of dearest Papa! If I were Orthodox, on the other hand, I might very well be embarrassed by all the silly tantrum throwing.
62 posted on 07/23/2005 8:32:53 PM PDT by Lilllabettt
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To: TaxachusettsMan
Your Church looks great on paper, sounds great in theory. It's just nothing I recognize as "one, holy, catholic and apostolic

What is your reference point of the "one holy, catholic and apostolic?" The ever-changing, ever-redefining, ever-searching Church of the West, or the Church that celebrates the same Liturgy it celebrated 1,600 years ago?

64 posted on 07/23/2005 8:36:31 PM PDT by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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To: TaxachusettsMan; NYer; GMMAC

"All that having been said, I must sadly admit that, every time I come to Free Republic and read the Orthodox postings, I wonder why the Holy Father would even bother? We surely don't need the "numbers" or the money. And do we need the grief?"

Something to remember about Free Republic and really any forum where debate is public: the debate is not about the debaters. It's about the audience. Or in net-speak, it's all about the lurkers.

You see, far more people are reading this thread than those actually posting it. And often times how we conduct ourselves tells far more about us than the content of what we actually say. You will know a tree by the fruit that it produces.

In my view, Pope Benedict is pursuing ecumenism for one reason: he thinks it's the right thing to do and what our Lord wants.

That said, it would be naive to fail to note that there are some advantages to pursuing ecumenism from both a theological and practical perspective. The author of this article very succinctly lists some of the theological advantages and I see no reason to repeat those.

What I would add to that is a brief discussion of the more subtle advantages to pursuing ecumenism in spite of the rude response being received from some members of the Orthodox church. Again, it revolves around the notion that debate is not about the debaters, but about the audience. You see, in a subtle yet very powerful way, the Catholic church through it's actions is stating to the whole world: This Is What We're About. Conversely, the Orthodox are stating the same thing. This Is What We're About.

So ask yourself: which church is sending the more positive message? Which church would you rather be associated with? Which church is going to attract the people that you would want to be associated with?

There are ALWAYS people watching.


75 posted on 07/24/2005 6:18:22 AM PDT by RKBA Democrat (Eastern Catholicism: tonic for the lapsed Catholic)
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To: TaxachusettsMan
All that having been said, I must sadly admit that, every time I come to Free Republic and read the Orthodox postings, I wonder why the Holy Father would even bother?

The Love of God and the brotherhood and of all mankind.

105 posted on 07/24/2005 2:35:43 PM PDT by Hermann the Cherusker
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