Posted on 07/22/2005 8:40:23 AM PDT by Frumanchu
So how much emotional abuse does she have to take? And what about the children?
Thank you so much for considering me as a good source for your answer.
Is the sin of adultery more entangling for a woman than a man? The problem occurs regardless of the encounter more so with the continued thoughts than with the actual event. What does that mean? Well why is pornography so entangling? It is the continued coveteousness of the act. We covet what we see and dwell on. When we continue to run down our spouse we are comparing them with something. This something could be the romance novel we read, or the picture we look at. The running down of our spouse in our mind eventually will come out. First our acts of love diminish. Then our words of love dwindle. Finally our belief in marriage is challenged. Is this different for a man or a women? No. It is different in its manifestation, what triggers it and what reinforces it, but not in its stages.
All of us begin sin with thought. See 2 Corinthians 10: 5. Read that backwards and you have the pattern of sin. If you do not bring in to captivity a thought that is against Christ, then you have a pretension, pretension leads to arguments, rationalization. What is the core of rationalizing? It is defense of our actions that we already did or are thinking about doing. I slept with that man because…: my husband doesn’t understand me, the other man does. My Husband does not value me, the other man does. My wife does not respect me, the other woman does. The entanglement is simply the thoughts we entertain daily. The thoughts we act on are reinforced, and the arguments are built around them.
The bottom line is will we submit to Christ and what we know to do? We submit by wrestling every thought into submission to Christ.
While I agree that Christ did say that lust in the heart is just as bad, the word used regarding the only reason for divorce does not include only lust, but the actual physical act.
And, yes there are sins that are persistent and difficult to rid ourselves of. However, scripturally, if we keep digging for the answers to those sins in faith and belief, we should be led to the answer. This woman in this example is not looking for the answer in scripture (unless it fits her desired outcome), but rather through the flesh or some legalistic biblical loophole.
Too many people of faith try to get by on "faith light". All the salvation with half the devotion. Are they truly saved? Only God knows. Are they then condemned. Again, only God knows. However in each question, the answer lies in scripture.
I agree with your assessment on the "repentence" preachers. I believe the answer lies somewhere between them and those who profess Grace under any circumstance. God knows we are not perfect, and is forgiving. However, I don't believe that He is real forgiving of those who don't strive on a daily basis to meet his commandments and live according to the word. I often wonder if maybe his wrath will be a little harder on those who practice the "faith light" and in reality have perverted his Desire for how man should conduct their lives than on those who never accepted the Word.
The divorce topic is one that I am very close to. Four years ago, my wife of 25 years decided to end our marriage because as in her words "we had grown apart" and she was looking to be "happy". Prior to ending it, she had suggested counseling. She said she would choose a Christian Marriage Counselor. After some resistance (guy thing), I agreed to go. With that agreement, I had decided that whatever the counselor suggested, I would do as long as it wasn't illegal, immoral or indecent. What we found is that she was looking for someone to "condenm" me and my actions in the marriage when in fact, most of the problem fell on her. At the end of my first solo session with the counselor, she asked me how it went. I said fine, that it was suggested that while I was a source of some issues but wasn't a terrible person and it wasn't entirely my problems that were causing the issues and that with some work there was the belief that we should have a strong marriage. At that point, she breaks down in tears and says we "were ganging up on her". Funny, her choice of counselor, a counselor who believed in the Gospel, and she blames us. I simply told the truth, told him I was willing to do whatever was suggested, including looking at my issues of faith. At that point, I knew she was looking for someone to label me as the bad guy so she could have a cleanse herself of the guilt actions.
She said I was a terrible father to our son, yet remained in the marriage so he would be in a two parent family. (If I was terrible, why then would she expose him to my terribleness on a daily basis?)
When confronted with scripture (I was not a believer at that time) from family members, her response was "I don't have to worry, I've got Grace".
So you can see why I have issues with the Grace no matter how much you thumb your nose at God folks. Again, I don't believe in the "repentence" folks, but hold the same for the "All Grace, all the time" crowd.
You pose a good question? And one only God can answer. I believe that's why so many churches believe that once divorced, there should be no second marriage unless the first marriage ended due to scriptural reasons.
It's too bad there is no "hotline" to God on these issues.
The Bible does speak of the reprobate. Maybe one who so defies the scripture as to compromise the vows of the first marriage and was a saved/believer falls into that category. They have wove a web so complex that it can't be resolved?
I relate to you because I too just went through the same kind of thing. My ex-wife and I are divorced, because there was a tremendous amount of pain and sorrow that I took emotionally, by someone that condemned me continually and accused me of doing things I've never done, and found fault with me for her unhappiness. And I'm sorry to say, but that description is just only scratching the surface of the problems we had.
When we split up, I took it as God's GRACE, FOR ME, and when she was gone, for the first time in years, I experienced again the filling of the Holy Spirit and the sensation of HIS acceptance.
She and I both made a mistake, AND GOD FORGAVE. This is what I meant by using God's grace to get out of sin. I could have legalistically tried to keep us together because of a legalistic edict, but sometimes God wants to undo the mistakes of the past, and I'm not going to apologize to anyone for us doing what we did. It was right, no matter what anyone says and no matter what scripture they pull out. Yes, God hates divorce. And yes, God also does forgive divorce unconditionally, and I don't expect to go through something like that again. But since I have, I can comfort those who are going through something similar.
Divorce is not a worse sin than being unmerciful or judgment of others. Only God can see the heart of all individuals, and Jesus Himself said, I don't judge you. Is that "cheap grace"? The term is an oxymoron, because GRACE IS ABSOLUTELY FREE, all the time. And I use it, to escape the life of sin.
And see, God is not the author of confusion. If they're remarried, leave it alone. Jesus, when speaking to the woman at the well who had been married SIX TIMES, didn't say, now go find that first man and get back with him. No. IT'S OVER. So leave it be, is what the Lord would say. :)
Because, as I said in another post, commiting adultery through a divorce is a ONE TIME EVENT, according to the original Greek. It happened, and it's done. It's not an ongoing sin to "repent" of. Rather, stay remarried to the new person, and be faithful in that marriage :)
What we don't know is her state of Salvation when Jesus met her. Was she a believer, was she saved? Without that knowledge, then we only extrapolate the reason he didn't tell her to go back to husband x or y.
I relate to you because I too just went through the same kind of thing. My ex-wife and I are divorced, because there was a tremendous amount of pain and sorrow that I took emotionally, by someone that condemned me continually and accused me of doing things I've never done, and found fault with me for her unhappiness. And I'm sorry to say, but that description is just only scratching the surface of the problems we had.
I find it somewhat difficult that you didn't see a pattern prior to marrying this person. (Please note, not trying to condemn, but rather trying to see the root of what happened). Although one of the problems with courting is we seem to put on our "Sunday Best" when in fact we should be what we are to our prospective mate. But there should have been some indications.
Such indications were available to me, but I thought she had pulled herself above what her family typically did. I guess the nut doesn't fall from the tree in all cases. But she had a change in her demeaner in her mid 30's and by time she reached her mid 40's with the empty nest and the change of life happening, suddenly she started pulling apart
No, I wasn't the perfect husband, but there was never a scriptural reason for the divorce. She claimed she had total faith, yet in this matter choose happiness over faith.
I guess I have trouble then with why God and Christ would put forth all these various rules and guidelines that Christians need to follow, only to ultimately say once you've professed your belief, it no longer in the grand scheme of things matters.
The Greek present tense indicates continuous action, not a one time event. This is the tense used in Matthew 19:9 in the phrase "commiteth adultery".
Everything presented to the Christian is an ideal, but we all fail, and none of us lives up to the ideals. If you know someone that does every moment of every day, please send them my username, I want to talk with them
And since nobody has the benefit of seeing the many past, private communications you and I have had, their accusations of me making a "personal attack" can't really apply here
You are a very paranoid person. All I did was point out that the Greek that is translated "committeth adultery" in Matthew 19:9 is present tense, which is an ongoing action. Don't take my word for it. There are many New Testament Greek resources on the web that will back me up on this. And who is John Courson? Is he a Greek Scholar?
I found a website that I think is very helpful and want to share it with all of you. The website is The Marriage Bed and has a good explanation of the difference between "contract" and "covenant" under the headings, "Bible" -> "Scriptural Application" -> "Divorce".
I don't have time to do the examination of the Greek right now, because I have to get to work. But your teachings are heretical from the top down, from where you think salvation occurs to everything after, and if someone doesn't like me saying that, well, Paul wasn't shy about identifying false gospels. If identifying a false teacher makes me "paranoid", then I am.
As usual, you back away from actually offering evidence to back up your beliefs. I will gladly point anyone who asks to the resource I got my information from. The fact is that your statement that the original Greek shows the adultery as a one time event is false.
In my marriage of almost twenty years, I have learned that a proper understanding of the biblical male/female roles has been a tremendous help. If a woman encourages a man to be a man of God, Sarah called Abraham, Lord, and a man loves a woman as though she were a part of him, as Eve was taken from Adam's side, it is as God intended marriage to be.
That is an excellent web site.
Agreed. But is there a distinction between those who truly apply what they know and what strive to achieve and yet fall short vs those who in the face of the facts and commands purposefully go against the same?
I don't make it that complicated. I try to keep the truth of God as simple as possible, as the Gospel is simple. I know that I believe in Jesus Christ, trusting Him as my Savior. The fact that I believe is the main thing, as it says in 1 John, when the people were concerned about their eternal security in salvation, God gave it to them through John. I use nothing else as my "security".
Yet I do see His fruit developed in my life daily. I've had the privilege and blessings to lead thousands to the Lord, plant churches and pastor others. Yet even without all of that, the fact that I believe is the first and last step of assuring that I'm right where I'm supposed to be :)
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