Posted on 07/08/2005 10:41:30 PM PDT by gamarob1
Fathers, Husbands and Rebels: Acting outside the Catholic Church, many married priests are attracting a following.
BOSTON — The priests came from three states, converging on a suburban park one Sunday to conduct an outdoor Mass. Wearing white vestments with rainbow-hued stoles, they led the worshippers in prayer and song. They stuck closely to traditional Roman Catholic liturgy.
But as they raised their arms in blessing, the five men revealed unmistakable proof of defiance: All wore wedding bands.
These men, who still consider themselves Roman Catholic priests, have wives, children — and unflinching commitments to their 2,000-year-old faith. As married priests, they say, they are not heretical anomalies but, instead, are following a model set by priests and popes in the earliest days of their church. They are part of a growing national network of thousands of deeply religious men who believe marriage does not compromise their ability to serve as spiritual ministers.
(Excerpt) Read more at latimes.com ...
We honor Sunday even more by ensuring that Friday and Saturday are viewed as penitential days, because all the joys of the old Sabbath have been transferred to Sunday.
I'm not aware of the west ever having the number of fast periods that the Orthodox do. Instead, our Fasts are spread throughout the year.
We have had since the 6th century, when we invented Advent, the period from the Sunday after St. Andrew to Christmas Eve (Advent, including the Vigil of the Immaculate Conception, the Embertide after St. Lucy), the Vigil of Epiphany, the period from Ash Wednesday to Holy Saturday (Great Lent, including the Embertide in the first week of Great Lent), Rogationtide (Monday-Wednesday before Ascension Thursday), the Vigil of Pentecost, the Embertide of the Octave of Pentecost, the Vigil of St. John the Baptist, the Vigil of Sts. Peter and Paul, the Vigil of the St. Laurence, the Vigil of the Assumption, the Embertide after the Exaltation of the Holy Cross, and the Vigil of All Hallows. Some also fasted on the Vigils of the Apostles.
Of course, lets be clear that in some of the season of what you call fasting (such as Advent), really is no more than what we call absintence (which we traditionally practiced on Wednesday, Friday, and Saturday), where you must abstain from meat and the like, but are not limited to one primary meal.
"We honor Sunday even more by ensuring that Friday and Saturday are viewed as penitential days, because all the joys of the old Sabbath have been transferred to Sunday." Disrespecting the Sabbath of the Lord does no honor to the Day of our Lord's Pascha.
I am familiar with the Latin excuse as to fasting being spread out. It's hogwash, just as is a lot else the Latins do and say. Just my personal opinion of course. I was not aware the Latins bothered wish fasting anymore anyway, for any reason. Whatever happened to the Wednesday fast? To special days of fast, e.g. the Exhaltation of the Holy Cross? And on fast days, you munch on cheese and you even chow down on fish in Great Lent? This is fasting? Gimme a break. Is it true you actually fast for a whole three hours or even less than that before Holy Communion?
The canons as to fasting that we observe are those of the Church. What you follow are the rules you follow, your own special thing. Speaking as someone looking in from the outside of your denomination, what rules you once had in the past seem to get reduced year by year. I'm amazed you have any left at all. Is it true you guys sing Protestant hymns too.
Is the Latin denomination for real?
Boy you just love usurping that which is not yours. It is really up to God, not you to decide who is greater or lesser in His kingdom. Egalitarianism is a humanist idea, not a divine one.
Is the Latin denomination for real?
Yes, it is true. Much to the chagrin of many traditionalists on this forum. But the counter-revolution has only just begun. We're waiting for the hippies to die so we can get on with it.
Much of what you write is not worthy of a reply, given the evil and wicked spirit of uncharity it is written in. Clearly, you are not one of the Brethren Mr. Graves, but are a whited sepulchure appropriate to your name. Kosta, this man is certainly an opposite of the type you were wishing to show me. A false brother in your flock.
I will point out only a few things for your edification, and then move on.
The Exaltation of the Holy Cross is a feast day among us, not a day of penitence.
Roman fasting has to do with the quantity and time of food consumed, not necessarily with what is consumed. In the normal course of things, a day of fast is one meal after noon and a small collation in the evening. The abstinence from specific foods is another matter conjoined to fasting. We do not follow the rules you do on this, as we allow oils and milk meats and fish. Whether or not one eats cheeses or fish during a fast does not determine the fast, it is whether one reduces the quantities and times food is taken.
The three hour fast before Holy Communion was an indulgence for the purpose of allowing evening Masses to be said so that more people could attend Mass on Sunday. Those who commune in the morning are supposed to follow the midnight fast if they can.
The Wednesday (and Saturday) Fast is mostly observed today by monastics and those with a personal determination to follow traditional patterns of devotion. The American Bishops have asked us to focus on fasting on Friday and Lent.
The Canons you observe are those of the Eastern Church only. We follow the traditions of the Holy Roman Church, just as our brothers in India follow their own traditions from St. Thomas. Somehow, you are under the false impression that local synods in Asia Minor were a force to create a worldwide normative practice. I attribute this to the isolated mindset you appear to hold which fails to comprehend that there are and have been Christians outside the Greco-Slavic world from the beginning who practiced the faith in a different manner than you do.
I'm unfamiliar with this "Latin denomination" creature you speak of. I know only the Holy Roman Catholic Church.
How then, do I know of so many Orthodox married to non-Orthodox and still members in good standing?
Or this one?
Canon XLVIII. If any layman put away his wife and marry another, or one who has been divorced by another man, let him be excommunicated.
When I lived in the Holy Land I worshipped with Maronites and Melkites and had Antiochian Orthodox friends and everyone thought of themselves as Roman. I was convinced this common sense of a common Roman Christian identity was a major part of the fraternity among the three groups who act more as fraternal triplets in a family than cousins distanced by generations. (When studying in Lebanon proper, I even encountered an openness to the Jacobites and a desire to "bring the black sheep home" that surprised me.
Having made your journey through Anglicanism and now into Orthodoxy have you ever read any of Lossky's magnificent appraisal of Lancelot Andrewes, the Anglican Caroline Divine. The Losskys and Andrewes are two of my side interests in my copious free time. *smile*
Siobhan
I find it interesting that you would see me as Graves' "sponsor." Graves has a mind and style of his own. I have no control over either. I certainly can't remember personally recommending Graves to you, so I am quite at a loss at this "connection" or, shoud I say, accusation?
Discussions can only proceed, even if the parties disagree, as long as a certain minimum degree of civility is retained. Exceeding the limits is not constructive. Flames consume and destroy, rather than built and heal. Every one of us is free to choose his or her approach. No one is "sponsored."
I would say that the latter choice is a waste of any talent or useful knowledge one may have, because it is suqandered in such a way that no one will consider earnestly or respect. The message so stated, even if valid, is lost in passion and made fruitless.
Cor 1:12-18 12 Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ. 13 Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul? 14 I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius; 15 Lest any should say that I had baptized in mine own name. 16 And I baptized also the household of Stephanas: besides, I know not whether I baptized any other. 17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect. 18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God. (KJV)
"How then, do I know of so many Orthodox married to non-Orthodox and still members in good standing?"
On what basis would you say they were Orthodox? All I can tell you Hermann is that the canons prohibit mixed marriages. And they do so for good reason. Simply put, a mixed marriage is not so much a marriage as it is an arrangement.
I obviously agree with the canon you quoted. What is your point?
"Kosta, this man is certainly an opposite of the type you were wishing to show me. A false brother in your flock."
I confess to being confused Hermann. What in the world are you talking about? I have presented you, however inadequately and poorly, with what Orthodox Christian belief and practice is. And now I find myself being labelled as a "type" and as a "false brother"? Have I labelled you as being some sort of "type" or as a "false" Roman Catholic? What gives you the right to go around publicly labelling people who post at the FR as being "types" or as "false"?
"Please: NO profanity, NO personal attacks, NO racism or violence in posts." Free Republic
Finally, some candor. I appreciate your frankness TradicalRC. May I call you "Trad"?
I have had the pleasure of reading materials from people in SSPX, SSPV, as also from the sedes vacantists. They have my respect, although I do not agree, obviously, with all of their positions. I am also familiar with the well considered positions taken by the Old Catholic followers of Dr. Dollinger (pronounced "dullinger", but I don't yet have umlaut knowhow), and they too have my respect.
It is interesting to me that some of the people in these groups are very adept at quoting the Orthodox fathers against Vatican II and against the policies of all of the popes who followed Pope Pius XII.
When he was the Bishop of North Africa, Gaul, and the Netherlands, St. John Maximovitch (who later became Archbishop of San Francisco and who finally fell asleep in the Lord in Seattle), brought a number of traditionalist Roman Catholic parishes into the Russian Orthodox Church Outside of Russia. This was many years ago, from roughly 1951 to 1966.
O holy and blessed Saint John Maximovitch, pray unto the Lord our God for us.
No Kosta, not you as a sponsor, a contrary example of the Catholics empty of charity you were pointing out to me. Thats all friend.
On what basis were they Orthodxing? How about still communing in the Church and having their children baptized there.
Yes, Peter had a mother-in-law, so he must have been a married man or a widower.
No, there was no "new revelation" that "priests are not to marry."
In fact, there have always been priests who were married: either because they followed the disciplines and customs of the Eastern (Greek) Church rather than the Western (Latin) Church, or because they wee married converts from Anglicanism or Lutheranism who were accepted into the priesthood. But this is not the general custom of the West, which has always put a high value both on marriage (which is a sacrament: a God-given avenue of grace!) and on virginity (recommended so highly by St. Paul for those dedicated to God's work.)
If you are interested in a comprehensive explanation of how and why the discipline (not "revelation" and not "dogma") of clerical celibacy came about in the Catholic Church, the place to go is:
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03481a.htm
I am familiar with the Latin excuse as to fasting being spread out. It's hogwash, just as is a lot else the Latins do and say. Just my personal opinion of course. ... And on fast days, you munch on cheese and you even chow down on fish in Great Lent? This is fasting? Gimme a break. ...
... What you follow are the rules you follow, your own special thing. Speaking as someone looking in from the outside of your denomination, what rules you once had in the past seem to get reduced year by year. I'm amazed you have any left at all. ...
Is the Latin denomination for real?
St. John Maximovich brought Old Catholics from the descendant of Dollinger's church into communion. He could not possibly have brought in Roman Catholic parishes since such parishes are held by the Bishop.
There are some Greek Orthodox and some Russian (OCA).
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