Posted on 07/08/2005 10:41:30 PM PDT by gamarob1
Yes, I am that close with God. I don't go through another man to get to Him. You could have that too, but you insist on having some false "priesthood" over you
St. Photius made his attacks over celibacy, fasting on Saturday, eating dairy products on fast days, not allowing priests to confirm, and many other disiciplinary differences.
Just like Michael Cerularius closed our Churched and had the blessed sacrament thrown out to be trampled underfoot because it was allegedly "invalid" from the use of azymes.
Paul was not "setting policy". He said that, and we've been over it. He was sharing an opinion. He said it wasn't a command, wasn't an edict. It was only his opinion, nothing more...
That was my understanding also. Not only that, but I'm not aware that a formal anathema was declared by St. Photius. My understanding is that he left it to the Pope of Rome to quell the filioque heresy in the West. At that time, the filioque doctrine had not yet spread to Rome itself, was not yet found in the Nicene Creed as then recited at St. Peter's Basilica. In fact, it was not until A.D. 1014, 200 years later, that the Divine Liturgy was celebrated inclusive of the filioque heresy, and this was at the instigation of the Holy Roman Emperor not the Pope of Rome.
"St. Photius made his attacks over celibacy, fasting on Saturday, eating dairy products on fast days, not allowing priests to confirm, and many other disiciplinary differences."
Let me get this straight. You fast on Saturdays? Good grief!!!
And you eat dairy products on fast days? Yikes!!!
What else do you do against the Tradition of the Church?
Orthodox priests do not "confirm", but they do chrismate the newly baptised with Holy Oil blessed by the bishop.
Yes, and our Priests also shave their faces, and celebrate mass during Lent, etc., etc.
These things are not Orthodox. They violate the Tradition that was once delivered to St. Peter and to all of the Holy Apostles. And you say you actually do these things "with bared head"?
When did all of this nonsense begin?
Probably shortly after you fellows started handing out divorces and marrying priests.
Quoting Satan is in bad taste.
And you've done nothing but offer your opinion and nothing more. Too bad God didn't appear to you and call you to be the apostle to the gentiles, too bad your letters are not considered Scripture. I'll take my chances with God's choice, thanks anyway.
Anyhow, you [the Catholics] sometimes continue your Station even over the Sabbath,-a day never to be kept as a fast except at the passover season, according to a reason elsewhere given. (Tertullian, De ieiunio adversus psychicos, 14:3)
And yet, if any one were to think that the Lord's day should be appointed a day of fasting, in the same way as the seventh day is observed by some, such a man would be regarded, and not unjustly, as bringing a great cause of offense into the Church. ... In this question, however, of fasting or not fasting on the seventh day, nothing appears to me more safe and conducive to peace than the apostle's rule: "Let not him that eateth despise him that eateth not, and let not him which eateth not judge him that eateth:" "for neither if we eat are we the better, neither if we eat not are we the worse;" our fellowship with those among whom we live, and along with whom we live in God, being preserved undisturbed by these things. ... As to the seventh day of the week there is less difficulty in acting on the rule above quoted, because both the Roman Church and some other churches, though few, near to it or remote from it, observe a fast on that day; ... I will tell you the answer given to my questions on this subject by the venerable Ambrose Bishop of Milan, by whom I was baptized. When my mother was with me in that city, I, as being only a catechumen, felt no concern about these questions; but it was to her a question causing anxiety, whether she ought, after the custom of our own town, to fast on the Saturday, or, after the custom of the Church of Milan, not to fast. To deliver her from perplexity, I put the question to the man of God whom I have just named. He answered, "What else can I recommend to others than what I do myself?" When I thought that by this he intended simply to prescribe to us that we should take food on Saturdays -- for I knew this to be his own practice -- he, following me, added these words: "When I am here I do not fast on Saturday; but when I am at Rome I do: whatever church you may come to, conform to its custom, if you would avoid either receiving or giving offense." This reply I reported to my mother, and it satisfied her, so that she scrupled not to comply with it; and I have myself followed the same rule. Since, however, it happens, especially in Africa, that one church, or the churches within the same district, may have some members who fast and others who do not fast on the seventh day, it seems to me best to adopt in each congregation the custom of those to whom authority in its government has been committed. (St. Augustine, Letter 36:2, 26-27, 32)
Oh, how I wish there were an Eastern Catholic church within, say, 80 or 90 miles (I'm in upper east Tennessee.) My husband, who is the best husband in the world (and nominations are hereby closed) is deeply attached to the beauty of the Orthodox liturgy --- rightly so! --- and I am deeply attached to the Veritatis Splendor of Catholicism. I always felt that we could have better spiritual understanding if we could somehow get the best of both.
Though I understand it's been really tough sledding for the Eastern Catholic brethren: a strong tendency to be marginalized, misunderstood, and distrusted from both sides (Latin vs Orthodox).
"He who abides in love, abides in God: and God in him."
Let's not have harsh words for Protestant posters, either. I can't help feeling respect and affection upwelling for anybody who is trying to serve the Lord Jesus. May the dear Christ draw us closer to eachother as He draws ALL closer to Himself.
Subsequent to this letter, one of the later popes of Rome tried to do away with Saturday fasting.
As I recall, in this or another letter, Augustine made reference to frequent communion v those who seldom commune. As in the section you quoted, he came down on the side of "live and let live."
Personally, I find the Roman practice as to Saturday fasting indefensible. It is one of a number of ways in which the West has been cavalier as to its Jewish roots. And there may even be a connection between that cavalier attitude and efforts by some of the Protestant sects to resuscitate the Jewishness of the Church. Such resuscitation is not needed in Orthodoxy because Orthodoxy has retained the fulness of the Tradition.
The the Jews fast on Monday and Thursday according to the Didache, but it proscribes Wednesday and Friday. Where the Roman and African custome of Saturday fasting came from, I know not, but it was known very early. St. Hippolytus already speaks of it, and the Liber Pontificalis attributes its regularization to Pope St. Callistus.
I don't see how either custom is more or less reflective of Jewish roots, since neither purported to be attempting to following Judaizers.
When the Roman custom ultimately settled in the West in its final form, fasting was held on Wednesday, Friday, and Saturday, as reflected in the Ember Days of the 4 seasons, and in the original discipline of Advent of a 3 day fast every week.
There is an interesting article discussing this history here:
http://www2.andrews.edu/~samuele/books/sabbath_to_sunday/6.html
"I don't see how either custom is more or less reflective of Jewish roots, since neither purported to be attempting to following Judaizers."
It has to do with the Sabbath. Orthodox honor the Sabbath by not fasting on that day.
Now as to the different days and so on, Orthodoxy honors the Tradition but she also transforms it, thus the different days. For example, we observe Pascha, as do the Jews, but Orthodox Pascha is outside of the Jewish Pesach because our Lord was Crucified outside the walls of Jerusalem. There is book on all this written by Jean Cardinal Danielou, S.J. You might find it interesting. I know I did.
The four seasons of fasting are not the Ember Days but Great Lent (6 weeks), the Apostles Fast (varies in length from 2-6 weeks), the Theotokos Fast (2 weeks), and the Advent Fast (aka St. Martin's Lent, 6 weeks). In additin, in some Orthodox parishes there is also a Fast from the Feast of the Dormition of the Theotokos through the Exhaltation of the Holy Cross (4 weeks).
We're all called and sent to the world to evangelize it. Paul is a brother in the Lord, and was/is used mightily, but he is not greater than any other in the kingdom, as Paul said himself, God is a respector of no man (that includes the "pope")
You're not being completely honest with your bible quotes-- what about 1 Timothy Ch 3?
It's polygamy. Adultery is sexual behavior outside of marriage. If the Church blesses the act, however, it's marriage, not adultery. Polygamy is not canonical, obviously. In Orthodoxy, however, it is sometimes necessary for the sake of economy to be lenient rather than stringent in applying the canons. A saint who I do not recall the name of once said that true economy is to strictly observe the canons. It's always safest to be strict and risky to be lenient in applying the canons, e.g. Apostolic Canon LXIV.
The canons are not laws. They are guiding principles.
The Latin denomination allows for "dispensations", not so? I heard of a mixed couple who paid off the local Latin bishop in big bucks for a dispensation to get married publicly in the Latin temple attended by the bride. This was back in the old days when such marriages were supposed to be in secret. Today, of course, "Who cares?" is the prevailing Latin attitude. In the Orthodox Church, however, such marriages are not allowed, period.
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