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To: Petrosius

In Rome, "Then when did the [azymes] start?" Petrosius

I would say at the same time as filioque was first recited in the Creed in Rome. This would have been in the year 1014 when the German Holy Roman Emperor, Henry II, forced the Pope of Rome to do things his way. Until then, according to historian John Meyendorff and others, the word filioque had not been included in the Creed as recited IN ROME.

Two hundred years earlier, the 8-9th century Novus Ordo man, Protodeacon Alcuin of York, redesigned the liturgy as celebrated at Aachen for Holy Roman Emperor Charlemagne and again later at the Abbey of St. Martin in Tours. It was that Novus Ordo liturgy that was shoved down the Roman throat in A.D. 1014. Today, we call it Tridentine, but the Tridentine roots are Alcuinian, not Roman and certainly not Petrine.


402 posted on 07/18/2005 3:34:40 PM PDT by Graves (Orthodoxy or death!)
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To: Graves
It was that Novus Ordo liturgy that was shoved down the Roman throat in A.D. 1014. Today, we call it Tridentine, but the Tridentine roots are Alcuinian, not Roman and certainly not Petrine.

Please, that's absurd. The roots of the Tridentine (the Canon, etc.) are recorded in the Leonine, Gelasian, and Gregorian Sacramentaries which long predate Alcuin.

403 posted on 07/18/2005 4:03:14 PM PDT by gbcdoj (Without His assisting grace, the law is “the letter which killeth;” - Augustine.)
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To: Graves; Petrosius; gbcdoj
Two hundred years earlier, the 8-9th century Novus Ordo man, Protodeacon Alcuin of York, redesigned the liturgy as celebrated at Aachen for Holy Roman Emperor Charlemagne and again later at the Abbey of St. Martin in Tours. It was that Novus Ordo liturgy that was shoved down the Roman throat in A.D. 1014. Today, we call it Tridentine, but the Tridentine roots are Alcuinian, not Roman and certainly not Petrine.

Maybe Alcuin travelled back in time to write the Gregorian, Gelasian, and Leonine Sacramentaries 200-300 years before his actual lifetime? These Papal Sacramentaries are the origin of the heart of the Ordinary and Proper of the Roman Mass codified at Trent by St. Pius V and recodified by Paul VI.

It could be that Alcuin even managed to get all the way back in time to Pope Innocent and St. Ambrose, both of whom quote the Roman Canon.

The possibilities of your suggestion of this time travel by Alcuin are really quite stunning for our liturgical history. I encourage you to further investigate this and let us know the results of your studies.

410 posted on 07/18/2005 9:43:38 PM PDT by Hermann the Cherusker
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