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To: PetroniusMaximus; Christopher78

Hi Petronius,

I do not judge those Christians you refer to. They may indeed be in the life of grace. But any Christian life which appears outside the Church must be connected to her. "3 Careful to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. 4 One body and one Spirit: as you are called in one hope of your calling. 5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism. 6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in us all. 11 And he gave some apostles, and some prophets, and other some evangelists, and other some pastors and doctors: 12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the word of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: 13 Until we all meet into the unity of faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the age of the fulness of Christ: 16 From whom the whole body, being compacted and fitly joined together, by what every joint supplieth, according to the operation in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body, unto the edifying of itself in charity." (Eph. 4)

This is what Pius XII himself says in another segment of the same encyclical letter: "We ask each and every one of them to correspond to the interior movements of grace, and to seek to withdraw from that state in which they cannot be sure of their salvation. For even though by an unconscious desire and longing they have a certain relationship with the Mystical Body of the Redeemer, they still remain deprived of those many heavenly gifts and helps which can only be enjoyed in the Catholic Church".

I cannot receive speaking of "your framework or group". In the NT I see one united and visible Church that was promised to endure until the end of the world, to which the promises of sanctification and salvation were given. To suppose that belonging to her - and I find her today to be the same Catholic Church - is only a very minor matter seems foolhardy to me.


39 posted on 06/26/2005 7:45:26 PM PDT by gbcdoj (Pope Pius X, it is you who are of men the most modern.)
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To: gbcdoj
First off, let me thank you for the generous and reasonable tone of your post!


***But any Christian life which appears outside the Church must be connected to her.***

You equate the "Church" with the RCC. I equate it with " all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ..."


***to seek to withdraw from that state in which they cannot be sure of their salvation***

I though no Catholic was sure of their salvation - and in fact I thought it was suppose to be a sin to say you were sure...?


***In the NT I see one united and visible Church that was promised to endure until the end of the world,***

This "visible" Church idea seems to be a real concern of many Catholics. When did Christ ever specify a visible church as opposed to an invisible one - i.e. a specific and single, nameable "group" as oppose to the "group" of all those who bear the moral and spiritual likeness of their Savior?

***To suppose that belonging to her - and I find her today to be the same Catholic Church - is only a very minor matter seems foolhardy to me.***

Indeed it would not be a minor matter if you could demonstrate that the Roman Catholicism of today is, in an exclusive way, the Christianity that Christ spoke of. In all honesty, when I read the NT and compare it with the RCC (and even with certain Protestant denominations) I find a disappointing lack of resemblance.
45 posted on 06/27/2005 5:30:18 PM PDT by PetroniusMaximus
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