Posted on 06/23/2005 6:41:22 AM PDT by wallcrawlr
LARRY KING, CNN HOST: Tonight, Joel Osteen, evangelism's hottest rising star, pastor for the biggest congregation in the United States.
(snip)
KING: But you're not fire and brimstone, right? You're not pound the decks and hell and dam nation?
OSTEEN: No. That's not me. It's never been me. I've always been an encourager at heart. And when I took over from my father he came from the Southern Baptist background and back 40, 50 years ago there was a lot more of that. But, you know, I just -- I don't believe in that. I don't believe -- maybe it was for a time. But I don't have it in my heart to condemn people. I'm there to encourage them. I see myself more as a coach, as a motivator to help them experience the life God has for us.
KING: But don't you think if people don't believe as you believe, they're somehow condemned?
OSTEEN: You know, I think that happens in our society. But I try not to do that. I tell people all the time, preached a couple Sundays about it. I'm for everybody. You may not agree with me, but to me it's not my job to try to straighten everybody out. The Gospel called the good news. My message is a message of hope, that's God's for you. You can live a good life no matter what's happened to you. And so I don't know. I know there is condemnation but I don't feel that's my place.
KING: You've been criticized for that, haven't you?
OSTEEN: I have. I have. Because I don't know.
(Excerpt) Read more at transcripts.cnn.com ...
So then if you are walking with God, will he not "prosper" you in all that you do?
And if you say that out loud and too often, will you not also be accused of being a prosperity preacher?
The Gospel is blurred when you mix spiritual truth with earthly materialism.
Jer 23.16-40
Jer 23:16 Thus saith the LORD of hosts, Hearken not unto the words of the prophets that prophesy unto you: they make you vain: they speak a vision of their own heart, [and] not out of the mouth of the LORD.
Jer 23:17 They say still unto them that despise me, The LORD hath said, Ye shall have peace; and they say unto every one that walketh after the imagination of his own heart, No evil shall come upon you.
Luk 12:15 And he said unto them, Take heed, and beware of covetousness: for a man's life consisteth not in the abundance of the things which he possesseth.
Phil. 4:19 But my God shall supply all your need according to his riches in glory by Christ Jesus.
James 2:5-6 Hearken, my beloved brethren, Hath not God chosen the poor of this world rich in faith, and heirs of the kingdom which he hath promised to them that love him? But ye have despised the poor...
Psa. 52:7 Lo, this is the man that made not God his strength; but trusted in the abundance of his riches, and strengthened himself in his wickedness.
Prov. 22:2 The rich and poor meet together: the LORD is the maker of them all.
1 Thes. 5:18 In every thing give thanks: for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus concerning you.
These verses help to provide some balance to the prosperity or blessings available to Christians. Gods Will determines your blessings. You may not always understand it but be thankful the loving God is in control of it.
the last sentence "You" is not directed personally at you...its just general.
I'll take grace ... and however the Lord is pleased to bless me ... any day.
Was not the covenant with Israel a granting of God's grace? What did Israel do to deserve the promises of God? Nothing.
But God promised them those things regardless. And if they refused to accept that grace, then those curses which followed were essentially nothing more than the natural consequences of turning your back on God.
For a while now, I've come to see the plight of Israel (as God's chosen people) in the Old Testament as a double-edged sword.
It is my own conclusion that God used Israel to illustrate to mankind our inability (in and of ourselves) to live up to His standards (perfection) for human life.
Isaiah vividly presents the plight of Israel in his "Song of the Vineyard".Isaiah 5:1-7 1 Now will I sing to my wellbeloved a song of my beloved touching his vineyard. My wellbeloved hath a vineyard in a very fruitful hill:Certainly Israel was blessed at times ... but Israel also suffered (from the hand of God) when she was unfaithful.
2 And he fenced it, and gathered out the stones thereof, and planted it with the choicest vine, and built a tower in the midst of it, and also made a winepress therein: and he looked that it should bring forth grapes, and it brought forth wild grapes.
3 And now, O inhabitants of Jerusalem, and men of Judah, judge, I pray you, betwixt me and my vineyard.
4 What could have been done more to my vineyard, that I have not done in it? wherefore, when I looked that it should bring forth grapes, brought it forth wild grapes?
5 And now go to; I will tell you what I will do to my vineyard: I will take away the hedge thereof, and it shall be eaten up; and break down the wall thereof, and it shall be trodden down:
6 And I will lay it waste: it shall not be pruned, nor digged; but there shall come up briers and thorns: I will also command the clouds that they rain no rain upon it.
7 For the vineyard of the LORD of hosts is the house of Israel, and the men of Judah his pleasant plant: and he looked for judgment, but behold oppression; for righteousness, but behold a cry.
From an Old Testament perspective ... prior to the coming of grace through Jesus Christ ... one might conclude that Israel may have fared better (from a secular standpoint) ... if God hadn't chosen her.
Certainly she (Israel) is an example to us ... of how we would fare were it not for grace (i.e we might do well for a time ... and be commensurately blessed ... but, that we would ultimtely go to our downfall, ... due to our inability to meet God's standards).
Funny you should ask. I used to have a pirate radio station that played Christian music (it was eventually shut down by the feds). At any rate there was this mountain. It kinda blocked my signal from getting through a canyon and feeding the town behind it. Well, I don't think I actually prayed that the mountain would be moved, but I often wished it were not there. Well before the Feds came and took away my station, the mountain did get moved. Hallelujah! The mountain eventually ended up about 30 miles east of there and no longer blocked my radio signal.
It must be very scary living in the relationship you have with Jesus...constantly wondering if youre faith will be good enough to have your prayers answered.
I don't worry about it. I try to conform my will to God's will and I try not to pray for anything that I would consume on my lusts or that I think he would prefer I not have. A prayer of faith is a prayer in which you pray that your will be conformed to his and that your desires match that which God wants for you. If those conditions meet up, then there is no doubt that everything you pray for will be granted -- exactly as Christ promised.
Gods Will determines your blessings.
Did I ever say it didn't?
I am from the Houston area and have been to his church once before, and left before the program was over. I was not a believer then and still the atmoshpere was too materialistic, with people fawning over him and him bathing in it. After being saved I read up on him when a friend started watching him.
He doesn't even stress living a Godly life (mentions it yes) to get what you want. He believes that saying what "will" happen out loud will cause it to happen. It is called positive confession and it tends to treat Jesus like a genie in a bottle.
If saying and believing what you desire were enough, then how come Paul was not healed of his malady when he prayed 3 times for it.
God didn't grant his wish, and Joel Osteen, nice as he may be, is no Paul. He ran the marketing dept. (has a degree in business and marketing) of that church until his dad died, has admitted no training in the Word except being the former pastor's son (this was awhile back that I read this, please excuse me if this has changed).
I don't put God in a box or believe that He can't bless us however he wants, I don't, however, feel He is obligated to "reward" us for faith and good behavior with our lusts. If all it took was asking and faith it will come true, how come members of word-of-faith churches still get sick and die?
Possilby not. Possibly yes. Tough to say until you finally took the time to discuss it. :) I appreciate that. Clarity is important with online postings.
I try to conform my will to God's will and I try not to pray for anything that I would consume on my lusts or that I think he would prefer I not have. A prayer of faith is a prayer in which you pray that your will be conformed to his and that your desires match that which God wants for you. If those conditions meet up, then there is no doubt that everything you pray for will be granted -- exactly as Christ promised.
This is a much more reasoned response and one I could even agree with.
How would you suggest a person deal with a prayer not answered accoring to Gods will. Again...back to the healing example I used earlier.
Why thank you wallcrawlr.
A Christian who goes home to be with the Lord does receive a healing, does he not?
We are all sentenced to die. The date of our death is determined by God. If we expect our will to conform to his will, we often have to let go of our own temporal desires and instead desire the same end as God. Thus, if God has willed that a person be sick or die, then we need to take refuge in the fact that it is God's will and that God is just and merciful. We simply need to ensure that our hearts are in the right place and our will is in conformity with his. If so, then we do have the promise that everything we ask for will be given to us.
A good conclusion. Instead of "desire", (and instead desire the same ) I'd say "accept". Becuase I dont think people want to desire the worst for themselves. Even if thats what God intends.
We simply need to ensure that our hearts are in the right place and our will is in conformity with his. If so, then we do have the promise that everything we ask for will be given to us.
This one I'm not as certain about the language youre using but I believe I have at least now been, as you've said earlier, "satisfied" with your meanings and can now sleep at night. :)
So then if you are walking with God, will he not "prosper" you in all that you do?
And if you say that out loud and too often, will you not also be accused of being a prosperity preacher ?
I believe that most christians operate under the understanding that we receive a special measure of favor from the Lord, ... because of our relationship with Him.
However, I think that we can get into trouble (doctrinally) ... when we attempt to specify what, when, how, etc. ... those blessings will be.
Those that are catergorized as properity teachers will specify ... perfect health, incredible wealth (i.e. airline ticket upgrades, mercedes, million dollar homes), ... etc.
I am particulary distressed when these teachers lead their listeners to become discontent with what God has already provided ...
Statements like ..."Why should you be satisfied with less than the best ... when God is your Father ?Somehow ... this impresses me like those Rent-a-Center commercials I used to see more than anything else.
Why, God owns the cattle upon a thousand hills.
As a child of God, you should have the best (physically and materially), ... and only the best."
I think that Paul handled the issue better ...Philippians 4:10 But I rejoiced in the Lord greatly, that now at the last your care of me hath flourished again; wherein ye were also careful, but ye lacked opportunity.
11 Not that I speak in respect of want: for I have learned, in whatsoever state I am, therewith to be content.
12 I know both how to be abased, and I know how to abound: every where and in all things I am instructed both to be full and to be hungry, both to abound and to suffer need.
13 I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me.
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1 Timothy 6:6 But godliness with contentment is great gain.
7 For we brought nothing into this world, and it is certain we can carry nothing out.
8 And having food and raiment let us be therewith content.
9 But they that will be rich fall into temptation and a snare, and into many foolish and hurtful lusts, which drown men in destruction and perdition.
10 For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows.
11 But thou, O man of God, flee these things; and follow after righteousness, godliness, faith, love, patience, meekness.
12 Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life, whereunto thou art also called, and hast professed a good profession before many witnesses.
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Hebrews 13:5 Let your conversation be without covetousness; and be content with such things as ye have: for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee.
Maranatha
If it weren't like that, then it really is all by works, and God is nothing more than Santa Claus (perish the thought).
As far as hardships, I know that the only hardships He brings into my life are to do a greater good later, for His glory and my good. :)
Is it because I'm so good? No. I'm a rotten disgusting sinner. Is it because I'm so faithful? No. I disobey daily. Is it because I have such mountainous faith? No. Most of the time I'm riding that mustard seed.
So what is it? His GRACE, and nothing more. He is GRACIOUS, and He always will be.
I can't answer for other people, why and what is going on in their lives. It doesn't make them "worse" or, "less spiritual". It just makes them different. God knows who I am and what I can handle, and what I can't. And He knows what they can and can't handle. And He works with me on that basis, and even moreso, on the basis that He PROMISED to bless me. And I take ALL OF THOSE PROMISES, that He PROMISED to bless me freely by His grace. And I stand on that alone.
I'm sorry, I don't know who first posted this, becuase I can't follow the thread as well as I should, but, this is the issue. I hate it when Christians see someone prospering materially and/or health-wise, and they just assume that you're undoctrinal. But nothing can be farther from the truth. God has promised to take care of EVERYTHING, and so I bank on that promise, more than the sun coming up every day. His promises are GUARANTEED.
I just wanted to add that, because it's not unbiblical to desire to have things taken care of (which He promised to do)
And just to comment on myself, just so you don't think I'm disparaging the life of those saints who are sick and have poverty, maybe they are more spiritual than me, I don't know, and I don't care. This is the life God has given me, and I love it.
I'm sorry, I don't know who first posted this, becuase I can't follow the thread as well as I should, but, this is the issue. I hate it when Christians see someone prospering materially and/or health-wise, and they just assume that you're undoctrinal. But nothing can be farther from the truth. God has promised to take care of EVERYTHING, and so I bank on that promise, more than the sun coming up every day. His promises are GUARANTEED.
It's more than just a matter of the envy of someone who is prospering materially and/or health-wise.
There have been healthy, wealthy christians since the days of Jesus.
It's more what is being preached. See post #131.
The message being preached leads people to Christ, that's all that matters. And once they're with Him, He will take care of where their station in life should be, regardless of what ANY teacher says.
Are you saying that even if a preacher is preaching something that is not doctrinally correct, as long as those hearing the preaching eventually come to Christ, then the preacher should be "off the hook" and it shouldn't matter if they are preaching like the Bible teaches it?
That's because God uses us by GRACE, not because we've met some "standard" of doctrine...
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