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To: Buggman

The book of Revelation was one of those books "on the bubble" as it were when decisions about the make up of the Canon were being made. It was included but not without some reservations. Because of its imagery, potential for wild speculation, and possible source for heretical opinion it has never been read in the Orthodox East in the cycle of liturgical readings.

When the Church gathered in council to put its understanding of the faith in the short form of a Creed it only affirmed that Christ would come again and judge the living and the dead. No other detail is provided or was considered necessary.

That being said two things are important. First that any and all of the "details" surrounding the end of history outside the basic affirmation that Christ will return are speculation and need to be explored with an enormous amount of humility and very much within the larger faith and human context of the Church. This is not a place for "lone rangers" and we have way too many loose cannons out there with elaborate and almost always spurious interpretations to sell.

Second the simple truth is this. We Christians would do a thousand times better to read and live the Gospels than engaging in end times speculations. Every second we spend with flow charts, scary books, wondering what the mark of the beast is and such is time spent away from feeding the poor, prayer, worship, caring for the broken, all the things for which we will actually be held accountable upon Christ's return. Could we imagine what the world would look like if all the energy used to try to determine that which even the Apostles were not able to know was directed to things that mattered?



98 posted on 06/22/2005 2:34:55 PM PDT by Polycarp1
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To: Polycarp1
There's an irony to someone with your screename questioning the canonicity of the Revelation, you realize: Polycarp was the disciple of John and the teacher of Irenaeus, who affirmed the book's authenticity and commented at length on it in the mid-second century. He was certainly in a position to know, thanks to his relationship, so why are you questioning it?

This is not a place for "lone rangers" and we have way too many loose cannons out there with elaborate and almost always spurious interpretations to sell.

Since the larger part of the Church has chosen to ignore and not teach the Bible's final book, it has no right to complain about the "lone rangers" who have to do so on their own, as I've already stated in the original article.

We Christians would do a thousand times better to read and live the Gospels than engaging in end times speculations.

If it were an either/or issue, I would agree. But it isn't. First of all, I've already stated several reasons why all Christians should study the prophetic Scriptures with the same vigor that they do any other subject in the Bible.

Secondly, like Sha'ul, we are commanded to learn and teach the whole counsel of God, not just our favorite subjects. As I pointed out in the intro above, he taught at least the basics of eschatology--including the coming of the Antichrist--to the Thessalonicans during the three short weeks he was there, which means that he was teaching eschatology to newborn Christians.

Thirdly, the Gospel accounts show Yeshua teaching much about the End Times, both in His Kingdom parables, in the Olivet Discourse, and elsewhere. Ergo, if you try to teach the Gospel without also teaching eschatology, you're not really teaching the whole Gospel.

99 posted on 06/22/2005 2:53:31 PM PDT by Buggman (Baruch ata Adonai Elohanu, Mehlech ha Olam, asher nathan lanu et derech ha y’shua b’Mashiach Yeshua.)
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To: Polycarp1; Buggman; xzins; blue-duncan; HarleyD; Corin Stormhands; Revelation 911; Alamo-Girl
We Christians would do a thousand times better to read and live the Gospels than engaging in end times speculations.

If you consider the book to be of divine origin (As I do) then you need to consider the fact that of all the new testament books, the only one that promises a blessing to those who read and keep the words in it is the Book of Revelation.

Now maybe none of us will understand it until it is all over, but nevertheless, we are admonished to read the words and to keep the words of the Book of Revelation.

Rev 1:3 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.

So I think it is at least as important to read as the gospels. We may not understand a single word, but nevertheless, we will be blessed if we read it. We have that promise upon the authority of the Word of God.

100 posted on 06/22/2005 4:25:34 PM PDT by P-Marlowe
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To: Polycarp1
I am not questioning the canonical status of the book of Revelation. I am merely stating a historic fact. The book was accepted into the canon but there were some who had misgivings about it precisely because within decades of its writing its passages were already obscure.

And yes the end of history is part of the Faith but even the Apostles were told that precise information about this was not available to them (Acts 1:7)and the Church has wisely maintained a respect for the reality of Christ's return while avoiding dogmatic statements about one scheme or another.

Fools rush in where angels fear to tread and to date every person who has posited a scheme regarding the end times other than an affirmation that Christ will indeed return, judge, and rule have one thing in common. They are all wrong and many, like Adventists, the Watchtower, and others are down right dangerous. How many churches have been senselessly split by end times quarrels?

Frankly Jesus affirmed that we would always have tribulation, at some future date it would be worse, and sometime he would return to judge and rule. That's it. Anyone with a more precise scheme is simply guessing and as long as they state that they are okay. The Church Fathers were wise to address this in the Creed and leave the details in the realm of pious theologizing.

So what is more important, attempting to pin down that which the Apostles themselves were not privy to or doing the work of God in the world? Jesus himself provides the answer when he states quite clearly that the difference between the sheep and the goats is not whether we guessed his return accurately but rather whether we were serving the "least of these..." in His name. The faithful steward is the one who is surprised by the master and found to be doing the assigned work not the one who hoarded all he had in anticipation of an eventual return.

That's again why I say spend the energy on reading and living what is found in the Gospels first and the other things will take care of themselves. Only until I have mastered the Sermon on the Mount will I have the maturity to speak on the Apocalypse.
148 posted on 06/23/2005 9:11:41 AM PDT by Polycarp1
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