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To: Buggman

But the Seals, Trumpets and Vial/plagues are God's judgments not the "wrath of the Dragon". The 1 Peter references are to the trials the church was going through at that time as well as the 1 Thess. passage. There is nothing in the Revelation or Daniel passage that would compare with the intra family problems of the Matthew passage. It appears that these are references to the "I came to bring a sword" statements of Jesus rather than to an eschatological prophecy.

As far as the church in the U.S. is concerned, the Great Tribulation is cosmic, including the heavens and the earth. No particular church or country, (Babylon excepted) is singled out. The progressive judgments lead up to the "Day of the Lord" but they are still judgments of the wrath of God, maybe not THE WRATH OF GOD, and my reading of scripture is that the church will not experience the judgments of God for sin, only for works.

As an aside, with the torture that the church in China and the Muslim countries are experiencing now, why should they have to experience the Great Tribulation, simply because the church in America is soft? Laodicea says "turn or I will spit you out, not wait and see what I'm going to do to you."


83 posted on 06/22/2005 11:32:51 AM PDT by blue-duncan
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To: blue-duncan
ut the Seals, Trumpets and Vial/plagues are God's judgments not the "wrath of the Dragon".

Can you prove that the seals are God's judgments, or is that just a common assumption? I can prove that they are not:

The Fifth Seal: The Great Tribulation
And when He had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: And they cried with a loud voice, saying, “How long, O Lord, Holy and True, dost Thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?” And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.
--Revelation 6:9-11
The appearance of these martyrs “under the altar” signifies that place where the blood of a sacrifice for sin was poured out, as was that of the trespass offering.[1] This indicates that these martyrs are of the same group as those who appear before the Father’s throne, those who “have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.”[2] For that matter, so do the white robes that they are given after being told to wait. This period of time, this Great Tribulation in which they are martyred is detailed in the Olivet Discourse and Rev. 12-13.

The reader should note that the martyrs are asking when God will judge the earth and are told to wait just a little bit longer, which clearly indicates that neither this seal nor the four that precede it are to be confused with the judgments of God against the sins of the world. The Day of the Lord has clearly not begun yet, so the pretrib objection that since the Church is not appointed to suffer God’s wrath,[3] it must be Raptured before any of the “seal judgments” are unleashed is shown to rest on quicksand. In fact, let us bow to the definitions given to us by the Word of God and toss away the fallacious term “seal judgments” altogether. Like using the term “tribulation period” to refer to the whole of Daniel’s Seventieth Week, there is no Biblical justification for calling the seals judgments, and it only serves to muddy the waters and slant the discussion.

References:
[1] Lev. 4:18 and 5:19
[2] Rev. 7:14
[3] 1 Th. 5:9

[Some presuppose] that a person who becomes a Christian now need not do so “through fire and blood.” This peculiar conceit seems to be an American invention, as we have become so used to living under a Constitution that protects our right to worship our Lord. Praise God for that! But faith tried “through blood and fire” is precisely the fate faced by millions of Christians around the world, from Islamic Africa and the Middle-east, to Communist China. Even in Canada, a law was recently passed that forbids teaching the whole of the Bible, lest one offend a “protected group” like the homosexual lobby, and pastors have already faced legal sanction for doing so. Similar laws have also been enacted in many European countries. If even Canada, so often called the fifty-first state in jest, can find its way to outlaw the Bible, can we honestly say that it could never happen here? On the contrary, the Bible teaches us that we should expect persecution, “fire and blood.”

The confusion comes from not keeping separate and distinct in our minds, as the Bible does in its words, the Great Tribulation, the wrath of Satan against Israel and those “who keep God’s commands and bear witness to Yeshua,”[1] and the Day of the Lord, in which God will “to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it,”[2] and “Adonai alone shall be exalted.”[3] As Sha’ul states, we are appointed to tribulation, “For verily, when we were with you, we told you before that we should suffer tribulation; even as it came to pass, and ye know.”[4] This is in utter contrast with the Day of the Lord, of which Sha’ul writes, “But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that Day should overtake you as a thief. . . For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Yeshua HaMashiach.”[5]

Why, it is asked, would Messiah allow His beloved bride to go through the Great Tribulation? In answer, let us remember that the purpose of Messiah giving Himself for us was not so that we could simply come as we are, forgiven but still creatures of our old sinful habits, into heaven without a struggle, but rather “that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto Himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.”[6] Yet, without being tried, without ever having the opportunity to suffer for His name, how can we be purified? The Church in the West is filled to overflowing with lukewarm Christians precisely because having faith in Messiah comes so cheaply to us.

As always, Scripture contains the answer. As Kefa wrote, “Wherein ye greatly rejoice, though now for a season, if need be, ye are in heaviness through manifold temptations: That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Yeshua HaMashiach.”[7] The phrase “tried by fire” invokes the imagery of a kiln that heats and melts the gold so that all of its impurities float to the surface so that they can be skimmed off, leaving the gold pure. “Therefore, the primary reason for putting the elect of God through the great tribulation is so that the true church will be presented to Christ as His bride ‘in all her glory, having no spot or wrinkle . . . that she should be holy and blameless’ (Eph. 5:27), ‘so that when He appears, we may have confidence and not shrink away from Him in shame at His coming’ (1 John 2:28).”[8]

Kefa went on to write, “Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you: But rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Messiah’s sufferings; that, when His glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy.”[9] The first Christians were tested and tried by persecution and suffering, as indeed millions of Christians have had their faith tested even to the point of death throughout the last two thousand years. Even today millions of Christians around the world are tested and tried and put to death. If the Bible not only tells us that we are destined for persecution but also the reason why it must be, why should it surprise Western evangelicals? Even many pretrib commentators will state that though they believe in a pretribulation Rapture, they also expect pre-Rapture tribulation.

Yet, in facing that, let us not forget Messiah’s promise to us, that though “some of you they will have put to death . . . not a hair on your head shall be lost.”[10] We ultimately are destined not for the grave, but for a glorious Resurrection, which is the subject of the next seal.

References:
[1] Rev. 12:17
[2] Isa. 13:9
[3] Isa. 2:11, 17
[4] 1 Th. 3:3-4
[5] 1 Th. 5:4, 9
[6] Tit. 2:14
[7] 1 Pet. 1:6-7
[8] Van Kampen, p. 257
[9] 1 Pet. 4:12-13
[10] Lk. 21:16, 17

Congratulations! You've just gotten more of my book out of me. :-)
86 posted on 06/22/2005 11:56:17 AM PDT by Buggman (Baruch ata Adonai Elohanu, Mehlech ha Olam, asher nathan lanu et derech ha y’shua b’Mashiach Yeshua.)
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