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To: topcat54; The Grammarian; Buggman; P-Marlowe; xzins; Alamo-Girl

Come on, look at the context of the passage and the subsequent history. Use your grammatical-historical tools and see that Jesus is not talking about the church nor is he looking at Pentecost. He says Israel will be desolate until they recognize who he is. You can't say that the church is desolate, especially at Pentecost, it is the people of Israel, not individuals, the nation as a whole who will be desolate and it still is and will be until it recognizes Jesus for who he is. He is not talking about scribes and Pharisees here for he has already mentioned them by name many times in the passage. He is speaking to the same people who just the day or days before were unknowingly blessing him, he now weeps over because he knows what is in store for them.


677 posted on 07/05/2005 1:16:36 PM PDT by blue-duncan
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To: blue-duncan; The Grammarian; Buggman; P-Marlowe; xzins; Alamo-Girl
Come on, ...

Where are we going?

Use your grammatical-historical tools and see that Jesus is not talking about the church nor is he looking at Pentecost.

Argument by assertion.

He says Israel will be desolate until they recognize who he is.

Is that really what it says?

"See! Your house is left to you desolate; and assuredly, I say to you, you shall not see Me until the time comes when you say, 'Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!' " (Luke 13:35)

Let's use the proper rules of interpretation.

It says "your house is left to you desolate." Period. It says nothing about undoing any desolation. It says nothing about what will happen after the time of desolation, if there is any human time period. Does it?

Who is "your" in "your house" and what is it referring to? Verse 31 tells us that Jesus was speaking to the Pharisees. Same thing in the context of Matthew 23. "On that very day some Pharisees came, saying to Him, ..."

So the context says that Jesus was conversing with the Pharisees.

Jesus metaphorically uses the imagery of old Jerusalem, "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her!" Was it literally Jerusalem that stoned the prophets? Or was it unbelieving Israel as represented by her leadership, the scribes and Pharisees?

What do we know about old Jerusalem? "this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia, and corresponds to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children--" Old Jerusalem is a picture of bondage. The one who kills the prophets.

Christ desires for His people to be identified with the new Jerusalem, which will one day come down from heaven in all her glory. There is no glory in earthly Jerusalem. It represents barrenness and futility.

But we, believing Jews and gentiles, the true sons of Abraham, have a real hope, "But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels,"

The bottom line is that when you read Luke 13 or Matthew 23 in context, it just does not say what you want it to say. The kingdom was "taken from you and given to a nation bearing the fruits of it."

he now weeps over because he knows what is in store for them.

"Now as He drew near, He saw the city and wept over it, saying, "If you had known, even you, especially in this your day, the things that make for your peace! But now they are hidden from your eyes. For days will come upon you when your enemies will build an embankment around you, surround you and close you in on every side, and level you, and your children within you, to the ground; and they will not leave in you one stone upon another, because you did not know the time of your visitation." (Luke 19)

AD70 was a brutal time for the apostate nation of Israel. God had withdraw His favor from thosde people because they killed the son of the landowner. The only consolation for Israel was that some of her childern would be blessed by being including in the righteous gathering of God's elect people, the Church. That is when the remnant would say, "Blessed is he that comes in the name of the Lord."

"Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, The remnant will be saved."

678 posted on 07/05/2005 2:07:14 PM PDT by topcat54
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