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To: Buggman; The Grammarian; topcat54; P-Marlowe; xzins
Thank you so much for your excellent post and for keeping me "in the loop" on this discussion!

It seems to me that this is yet another instance of the difficulty many of us have in accepting all that is written in the Scriptures.

We have the same kinds of debates on predestination v free will. The Scriptures speak to both and yet we mortals tend to want an “either/or”. To the contrary, however, both are true because God says that both are true.

Likewise here – there is a dispute as to whether the priesthood of Melchisedec cancels the priesthood of Levi (an “either/or”):

On the one hand:

For he testifieth, Thou [art] a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec. For there is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof. For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope [did]; by the which we draw nigh unto God. - Hebrews 7:17-19

On the other hand:

For thus saith the LORD; David shall never want a man to sit upon the throne of the house of Israel; Neither shall the priests the Levites want a man before me to offer burnt offerings, and to kindle meat offerings, and to do sacrifice continually. – Jer 33:17-18

I assert that this is not an “either/or”. We must accept that both statements are true as sworn by God in the full reading of Jeremiah 33 and as Christ said in the Sermon on the Mount:

Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. – Matt 5:17-18

Paul helps us to understand how both statements are true (emphasis mine):

And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, [saying], In thee shall all nations be blessed. So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham. For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed [is] every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them. But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, [it is] evident: for, The just shall live by faith. And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them. Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed [is] every one that hangeth on a tree: That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

Brethren, I speak after the manner of men; Though [it be] but a man's covenant, yet [if it be] confirmed, no man disannulleth, or addeth thereto. Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ. And this I say, [that] the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.

For if the inheritance [be] of the law, [it is] no more of promise: but God gave [it] to Abraham by promise. Wherefore then [serveth] the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; [and it was] ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator. Now a mediator is not [a mediator] of one, but God is one.

[Is] the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law. But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe. But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.

Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster [to bring us] unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster. For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. – Galatians 3

Thus the promise of faith precedes the law. The one does not cancel the other then or now.

Or to put it another way, both the law and faith are true because God says they are both true.

I offer this paraphrase of Romans 1-8: that a man can choose to live under the law and God will let him and he will fail because, as the law is purposed to prove, no man can ever be “good enough” to earn his own salvation. (If he could then Jesus' death on the cross was for nothing).

Adding a further paraphrase of the Sermon on the Mount: the law and the prophets are Holy and shall stand until heaven and earth pass away and all is fulfilled.

Thus the priesthoods of Levi and Christ (Judah, Melchizedek) continue until all is fulfilled – the law convicting of sin, bringing humility before God – the faith redeeming the unworthy, keeping the Spiritual family together.

IMHO, pride is the soul-killer both in heaven and in earth and sets both angels and man against the will of the Father – thus, all beings must realize their unworthiness always – and therefore, we need the law until heaven and earth pass away and all is fulfilled. As evidence I offer this thought experiment: consider why Lucifer went awry and what lies at the very root of lust, hate, jealousy, anger, rebellion, want, resentment, murder, theft, fear, etc. Also, the judgments apply to both angels and man, to both this heaven and this earth.

654 posted on 07/03/2005 8:28:27 AM PDT by Alamo-Girl
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To: Alamo-Girl
We have the same kinds of debates on predestination v free will. The Scriptures speak to both and yet we mortals tend to want an “either/or”. To the contrary, however, both are true because God says that both are true.

This position is either nonsensical or pointedly refuses to delve into the mechanics of the statement.

Just as with the Calvinist-Arminian debates, the problem is not simply predestination versus free agency, but Calvinistic predestination and free agency versus Arminian predestination and free agency, even so here the question is not whether both are true statements, but rather in what manner both statements are true. I have already argued my position, so I will refrain from repeating the arguments here.

656 posted on 07/03/2005 2:17:05 PM PDT by The Grammarian (Postmillenialist Methodist)
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To: Alamo-Girl; All

Extremely well said--as usual. Thanks.

The compulsion to cleave to; allow; see only; tolerate only

ONE

--of the dance parters;

--sides of the coin;

. . .

is a very common one and a deadly trap of the enemy, imho.

Christ VIRTUALLY ALWAYS SLICED KATTY CORNER RIGHT ACROSS the pharisees' arguments and questions when they persistently insisted that CHRIST declare which side of the arbitrary and artificial dichotomy they were obsessing over at the time.

YES there are mysteries.

Yet, Father, Christ, Spirit--God IS utterly dependable to fulfill every aspect to the nth degree---regardless of our petty and finite sensibilities on such matters.

I have OFTEN found God to be MUCH MORE OFTEN AND MUCH MORE THOROUGHLY than our finiteness is typically comfortable with

A

"BOTH/AND" GOD

rather than an either/or, God.

Both the Water and The Blood;

Both the Old and the New Covenant march forward into the future in some important senses;

Both Blood Israel and The Church are assigned roles in the end times dramas;

Both the 12 Blood tribes and the 12 Apostles are represented in the 24 elders in eternity;

Both the body is given importance--witness The Resurrection(s) as well as The Spirit

Both brokenness/humility as well as ruling and reigning in confidence with power and majesty with Christ are the essential required essences of our destinies in Christ;

Both complexity/simplicity are hallmarks/finger prints of God and His handiwork;




God was well able at the end of the Old Covenant Canon or anywhere in the New Covenant Canon to have given us a clear literal, symbolic, grammatical and/or otherwise VIVID message that the Old Covenant was now complete; fini, over with, totally done with and to be flushed, put away in a dusty museum somewhere--only to be bothered about by demented historians addicted to such petty historical silliness.

God did NO such thing.

Thoughtful persons might wonder why.


753 posted on 07/08/2005 9:58:00 PM PDT by Quix (GOD'S LOVE IS INCREDIBLE . . . BUT MUST BE RECEIVED TO . . .)
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