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To: xzins; Buggman; P-Marlowe; Alamo-Girl
Premillennialism is not a fad. Many of the ante-Nicean fathers would fit neatly within the premillennialist camp.

I have no truck with classic premillennialism per se. There are many who have a correct theology (covenant theology) and are premil without compromising the fundamental relationship between God and His people expressed in the Bible.

It's the dispensational (and semi-dispensational) variety that troubles me. There error is not just in the area of eschatology, but also in soteriology and ecclesiology.

In the millennium of the classic premil there is no distinction between Jew and gentile. There is no return to ritualistic sacrifices ala the older covenant. There is no rebuilt temple, reconstituted priesthood or need for red cows. It fully appreciates the superseding of the old covenant by the new without a return to those older forms of religion.

585 posted on 06/30/2005 2:05:11 PM PDT by topcat54
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To: topcat54; BibChr

I would have to re-read Justin, but I'm pretty sure his writing allows for the reconstructed Temple.

I also have no problem with the idea that God has worked differently with different people in different eras. It is an idea that can be biblically supported.

The issue is always "how many eras?" and "how rigidly does one apply the notion?"

To me, even the Old Covenant/New Covenant can be seen as 2 dispensations. I don't get too wrapped around the axle over that one.

Now, you know that I am not a Westminster style calvinist, so to subject any other theology to the westminster litmus test would cause a number of concerns for me. However, as you point out, premillennialism (even dispensational) does not automatically mean that calvinism has been violated.


588 posted on 06/30/2005 2:29:35 PM PDT by xzins (Retired Army Chaplain and Proud of It!)
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To: topcat54; xzins; P-Marlowe; Alamo-Girl
n the millennium of the classic premil there is no distinction between Jew and gentile. There is no return to ritualistic sacrifices ala the older covenant. There is no rebuilt temple, reconstituted priesthood or need for red cows.

Then you need to go gripe about Ezekiel 40-48, not about dispensationalism (which I would join you in criticizing on certain grounds, but not this). Nobody denies that it's ever been fulfilled in history, so either Ezekiel is a false prophet, or your theology is wrong.

Tell me something: What does God mean when He says this through Jeremiah (33:17-18)?

David shall never lack a man
To sit on the throne of the house of Israel,
Nor shall the priests the Levites lack a man
Before Me to offer burnt offerings,
And to kindle grain offerings,
And to do sacrifice forever.
The man who will sit on the throne of the house of Israel is obviously the Messiah Yeshua, but what about this second promise? It can't speak of Yeshua--His priesthood is of the order of Melcheizedek, not Levi--and yet God puts it side-by-side with the Davidic Covenant of the Messiah to show that it is every bit as sure.

So tell me, was Jeremiah a false prophet? Will God fail in His promise of a Levitical priesthood every bit as eternal as His Son's rule? Or is there, perhaps, something wrong with your comfortable theology that simply dismisses 3/4ths of the Bible as "old"?

592 posted on 06/30/2005 2:39:46 PM PDT by Buggman (Baruch ata Adonai Elohanu, Mehlech ha Olam, asher nathan lanu et derech ha y’shua b’Mashiach Yeshua.)
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To: xzins; Alamo-Girl; All

PRAISE GOD THAT HE KNOWS

precisely HOW

HE WILL arrange the meshing, sequencing etc. of the Old Covenant with the New in the end times; the millenium reign of Christ etc.

HE HAS CHOSEN many mysteries to remain mysteries in Scripture--some up until just before and some until just after their fulfillment.

That's fine with me.

HE'S THE BOSS.

Knowing God more than a little, I suspect His arrangement will be something akin to an absolutely masterpiece ballet or some such choreographed perfectly with perfect music, lighting, and utterly Heavenly theatrics . . .

wherein various key aspects of the Old Covenant are shown to fit like key in lock; hand in glove with the New Covenant weaving a tapestry of perfection and unrivaled beauty.

I suspect that there will be elements that will be sequential with older lain aside as having fulfilled their purposes . . . perhaps entered into gold frames on Heavenly halls. Other facets and aspects will march along in parallel with facets of the New Covenant as left and right hands; as warp and weft of the continuing creative tapestry of reality Father, Son and Spirit delight so much to weave and to present to and with their Redeemed Creation Christ died so exhaustively and thoroughly for.

Christ will have been shown to have been Centrally in the Old Covenant from beginning to end; to be it's utter fulfillment and in the New Covenant to be it's fruition and further unfolding. I suspect the masterful seamlessness of it all in all it's robust beauty will be astounding from the perspective of Heaven.

Of Course, with The Cross; The Resurrection as the fulcrum on which all reality swings round and round.


593 posted on 06/30/2005 2:44:23 PM PDT by Quix (LOVE NEVER FAILS.)
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