Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article

To: HarleyD; topcat54; blue-duncan; P-Marlowe; Alamo-Girl; xzins; Quix; Corin Stormhands; ...
You’re looking at anecdotic evidence around you and this may be giving the wrong picture.

Again, read the Isaiah passage. It states very clearly that God would reassemble Israel for the second time--not the third, or fourth--after the Messiah had become known to the Gentiles. Ergo, Isaiah can't be referring to the Assyrian and Babylonian exiles respectively (particularly since no one was "regathered" from the Assyrian captivity), nor could he be referring to anything before the Apostolic period. Nor has there been any other regathering between 70 AD and 1948 that could have been the object of the prophecy. That leaves the Israel of today.

Nor could the Israel of today disappear and then another state return in its place, since again the Lord, through the prophet, says very clearly that after the second regathering, righteousness (through the Messiah) would rule in Zion (see chap. 12).

I presented Ezekiel's prediction because it demonstrates that God said very clearly that the regathering would begin before His Spirit was put on the people of Israel as a whole, which means before the whole nation accepted the New Covenant predicted in Jer. 31, the covenant which you and I, grafted into Israel's root, now enjoy.

To date, neither of you have posted a logical, Biblical refutation of my position, nor any "objective" reason to believe that the Israel of today is not what is referred to by the prophets. Simply saying, "Nuh-uh, show me more," is not a refutation or even an argument.

Frankly, I understand why you are having difficulty accepting this. The existence of Israel is an enormous embarrassment to the entire world of Replacement Theology (or Supracessationism, or Reform Theology, or whatever you choose to call it). It's easier to simply claim that something isn't true than to adjust our theology and agendas in accordance with God's will. It was easier for the Pharisees and Sadducees that wouldn't accept Yeshua the Messiah and had Him crucified to rid themselves of an inconvenience to their deeply-held theologies too.

But for those of us who have never accepted that God would break the least of His promises, the existence of Israel today stands and will continue to stand as evidence of God's grace even to those who reject His provision in the Messiah and the faithfulness of all His promises, as well as a marker of how late the hour is.

240 posted on 06/25/2005 10:41:36 AM PDT by Buggman (Baruch ata Adonai Elohanu, Mehlech ha Olam, asher nathan lanu et derech ha y’shua b’Mashiach Yeshua.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 216 | View Replies ]


To: Buggman; topcat54
And in that day there shall be the Root of Jesse standing for a banner of the people; to Him the nations shall seek; and His resting place shall be glorious. And it shall be in that day, the Lord shall again set His hand, the second time, to recover the remnant of His people that remains, from Assyria and from Egypt, and from Pathros, and from Ethiopia, and from Persia, and from Shinar, and from Hamath, and from the coasts of the sea. --Isa. 11:10-11

Notice the order of events here: First, the Messiah, the Root of Jesse, will be a banner, a rallying point, for the nations (lit., the Gentiles) who will seek His rest. Then, after this point, God will regather His people "the second time" from the nations. The first time was from the Babylonian captivity, the second the regathering of Israel into a nation starting with the first immigrations of the Jews in the 19th century and running through the reformation of the nation in 1948.

Given the context of Isaiah 11, this does not seem to me to refer to simply a regathering of a national Israel; it's a reference to the Second Coming.

1 And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots: 2 And the spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD; 3 And shall make him of quick understanding in the fear of the LORD: and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, neither reprove after the hearing of his ears: 4 But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove F64 with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked. 5 And righteousness shall be the girdle of his loins, and faithfulness the girdle of his reins. 6 The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them. 7 And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox. 8 And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice' den. 9 They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea.

10 And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious. F65 11 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall set his hand again the second time to recover the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria, and from Egypt, and from Pathros, and from Cush, and from Elam, and from Shinar, and from Hamath, and from the islands of the sea. 12 And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners F66 of the earth. 13 The envy also of Ephraim shall depart, and the adversaries of Judah shall be cut off: Ephraim shall not envy Judah, and Judah shall not vex Ephraim. 14 But they shall fly upon the shoulders of the Philistines toward the west; they shall spoil them of the east together: they shall lay their hand upon Edom and Moab; and the children of Ammon shall obey them. 15 And the LORD shall utterly destroy the tongue of the Egyptian sea; and with his mighty wind shall he shake his hand over the river, and shall smite it in the seven streams, and make men go over dryshod. F67 16 And there shall be an highway for the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria; like as it was to Israel in the day that he came up out of the land of Egypt.

Notice that in this time period, "the wolf also shall dwell with the lamb," and that "They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea." These are both marks of the time of the Millenium.

Also, with regard to Isaiah 12, the reference to Zion makes much more sense as a reference to the New Jerusalem, since it refers to "the Holy One of Israel in the midst of thee" and, more tellingly, because the events in Is. 12 are supposed to come "in that day" that follows the lying down of wolf with lamb and leopard with kid--again, marks of the Millenium.

Proceeding on, in Ezekiel 37, you are assuming a chiliastic interpretation of these events is the correct one.

O My people, I will open your graves and cause you to come up out of your graves, and will bring you into the land of Israel. And you shall know that I am the LORD, when I have opened your graves, O My people, and have brought you up out of your graves. And I shall put My Spirit in you (see Jer. 31:31-34), and you shall live, and I will place you in your own land. And you shall know that I, the LORD, have spoken and have done it...

I am not sure how you get that the Israelites are returned to their land previous to being given the Holy Spirit, but you will note that, as is common with the Old Testament, there is a parallelism of form: " O my people, (1) I will open your graves (2) and cause you to come up out of your graves, (3) and will bring you into the land of Israel. And you shall know that I am the LORD, when (1) I have opened your graves, O My people, and (2) have brought you up out of your graves. And I shall put My Spirit in you, and you shall live, and (3) I will place you in your own land."

The opening of graves and coming up out of the graves is immediately followed by God putting his Spirit in the Jews, which actually PREcedes Israel being placed in their own land. And again, it is just as easily a reference to Israel being returned to their spiritual 'land' of salvation, of which the physical Israel was a type. Ezekiel 36 says the same thing:

And I will sprinkle clean waters on you, and you shall be clean. I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from your idols. And I will give you a new heart, and I will put a new spirit within you. And I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you a heart of flesh. And I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you shall keep My judgments and do them. And you shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers. And you shall be My people, and I will be your God. (vv. 17-28)

Note that God's Spirit is in the Israelites BEFORE God returns them to "dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers." So again, I would argue that the passages you have put forth do not support a chiliastic, premillenial view of eschatology.

247 posted on 06/25/2005 12:27:23 PM PDT by The Grammarian (Postmillenialist Methodist)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 240 | View Replies ]

To: Buggman; topcat54; blue-duncan; P-Marlowe; Alamo-Girl; xzins; Quix; Corin Stormhands

You make the mistake of thinking I know something about eschatology. I don't and I haven't any formed opinions.

I don't need to read Isaiah, Ezekiel or Daniel to try to figure out the end times. I know from scripture the Thessalonicans felt very certain that the Lord Jesus' return was imminent according to the second book of Thessalonian. Considering the second book was estimated to be written around 50AD it appears the Thessalonicans didn't feel a need for Israel to be restored because it wasn't destroyed until 20 years later in 70AD. Simple logic says they must have had a different interpretation.


266 posted on 06/25/2005 6:25:48 PM PDT by HarleyD
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 240 | View Replies ]

Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article


FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson