[Polycarp1]

Eastern Orthodoxy has had Fathers and scholars who have read and taught about the book of Revelation. We've simply put that in the category of what we call "theolegoumena" or pious teachings and not dogma (that which must be believed).
That Christ will return is dogma, the wheres, whys, and hows of that glorious event are not.

It appears that you are coming from a "Messianic Jewish" background? Have you ever been to an Eastern Orthodox worship service? I think you would find that the continuity between temple, synagogue, and Church has been maintained within Orthodoxy to a fairly high degree.

We will disagree about the prophetic nature of the return of Jews to the Holy Land. My community of faith, the Antiochian Orthodox Church, is deeply rooted in the Middle East and we have many among us who suffered greatly at the hands of those who seek to establish Israel. It's a very difficult thing sometimes to be a Palestinian Christian because you are often caught between a rock (Jews) and a hard place (Muslims) and so many have simply fled. So that topic may be not worth exploring.

I would venture to say that Orthodoxy is on the whole, if you can use a Protestant term to describe it, "amillenial".
Every Sunday liturgy of the Church is begun with the call of the Priest "Blessed is the kingdom of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit" so while we look forward to a consumated Kingdom of God we also believe that we are, by God's grace, already part of it and realize that most completely when we are in worship. We simply do not have the theological "drive" if you will to search for sign, dates, and times because we're not obliged to seek that which is already among us.

Remarkably that quiet confidence has allowed us to endure, as whole, intense persecution very similar to that endured by those to whom St. John wrote the Revelation. We have endured the horrible persecutions of Rome, the permanent disposessions of Islam (our Patriarch of Constantinople still has to be approved by the Muslim Turks and even our Patriarch of Antioch is monitored by the Syrian government), and the fury of atheistic communism and have survived. This past century was among the worst of times as millions offered up their lives and many more confessed their faith under enormous pressure. We have seen many anti-christs, many beasts, and somehow we have never taken their marks or worshipped their false hoods and we have paid a terrible price. In one sense, then, we don't always teach the book of Revelation, we live it.

That being said its time for me to move on. I've got work to do, an ordination to prepare for, and things to do. Keep the faith and I will try to do the best I can to do the same. Some day, we'll have these answers but it probably won't matter because we'll see Jesus and everything else will be something less.

[Buggman]

We've simply put that in the category of what we call "theolegoumena" or pious teachings and not dogma (that which must be believed). That Christ will return is dogma, the wheres, whys, and hows of that glorious event are not.

Then we are in agreement on that front. Nothing I write is proposed as dogma beyond the absolute basics, and even those I wouldn't part company with any brother or sister in Christ over save the fact of the Lord's return.

It appears that you are coming from a "Messianic Jewish" background? Have you ever been to an Eastern Orthodox worship service? I think you would find that the continuity between temple, synagogue, and Church has been maintained within Orthodoxy to a fairly high degree.

I have not had the opportunity, but I have overall been very impressed with the Eastern Orthodox that I've met on this forum.

We will disagree about the prophetic nature of the return of Jews to the Holy Land.

That would, unfortunately, be one of those areas of dogma that I mentioned, and one of those reasons that I could never be Eastern Orthodox. The prophets are too clear on this point for me to consider it to be a point of compromise (see Ezk. 36-37 and Isa. 11:10-16 for just two examples). I'm sorry some of your spiritual kin have suffered in the crossfire, but bear in mind that the Jews suffered much in both western and eastern Europe at the hands of the Church--including forcing those who wanted to believe that Yeshua was the Messiah to cease keeping the very Torah that Yeshua Himself confirmed!

I would venture to say that Orthodoxy is on the whole, if you can use a Protestant term to describe it, "amillenial".

To be honest, most of the Church, whether Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, or Protestant, is amillennial. This is, however, a departure from the teachings of the early Church fathers, as well as from the plain meaning of Scripture.

Every Sunday liturgy of the Church is begun with the call of the Priest "Blessed is the kingdom of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit" so while we look forward to a consumated Kingdom of God we also believe that we are, by God's grace, already part of it and realize that most completely when we are in worship.

Amen. There are again two opposite extremes that we must walk between. The first is to say that since we are the Kingdom of God, we've seen the fulness of all of His promises, and to forget (or worse, teach against) His Second Coming. The second is to look so forward to the visible manifestation of the Kingdom of God in Messiah Yeshua's return that we forget that we are called to be His Kingdom now.

I agree that we should not date-set, as I said before, but given that the Lord did give us some very specific signs that would precede His Second Coming, I think we owe it to Him to not despise those signs and to know what they are--what they really are, not simply expecting His return every time something bad happens. Remember that Yeshua chided the Pharisees for not understanding the signs of His First Coming--how much greater responsibility do we who have the Holy Spirit dwelling in us then have?

Your points about having already endured tribulation are well taken. My own spiritual ancestors shared in many of those which you described, as well as suffering persecution at the hands of the papacy and even the protestant denominations in Yeshua's Name! I can trace my lineage back to the pilgrims who came over on the Mayflower just so that they could worship in a non-approved manner according to the call of the Spirit and their concience.

But, and this is the important part, Yeshua said, quoting Daniel, that in the days just before His Coming, there "shall be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world to this time; no, nor ever shall be" (Mt. 24:21). He wasn't just talking about the last two millennia (which to be blunt, weren't any different from the four or more that preceded it in terms of violence and tribulation against God's people), but about a very specific period that would start with the Abomination of Desolation and end with His Coming.

Sha'ul tells us what that AoD is: "Let not anyone deceive you by any means. For that Day shall not come unless there first comes a falling away, and the Man of Sin shall be revealed, the Son of Perdition, who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God, or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the Temple of God, setting himself forth, that he is God" (2 Th. 2:3-4).

This has never happened in history, and could not have happened since 70 AD because of the lack of a Temple. (Incidentally, that means that one of the signs we should look for is the rebuilding of God's Temple in Jerusalem.) While one might apply Yeshua and Sha'ul's words to other times, they have not been fulfilled yet (see the Introduction that started this thread, where I get into the difference).

Some day, we'll have these answers but it probably won't matter because we'll see Jesus and everything else will be something less.

Amen. Go in God's peace and blessing. It was a pleasure crossing "swords" with you.