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To: murphE
St. Augustine City of God (Book 8 Chap 10)

For although a Christian man instructed only in ecclesiastical literature may perhaps be ignorant of the very name of Platonists, and may not even know that there have existed two schools of philosophers speaking the Greek tongue, to wit, the Ionic and Italic, he is nevertheless not so deaf with respect to human affairs, as not to know that philosophers profess the study, and even the possession, of wisdom. He is on his guard, however, with respect to those who philosophize according to the elements of this world, not according to God, by whom the world itself was made; for he is warned by the precept of the apostle, and faithfully hears what has been said, "Beware that no one deceive you through philosophy and vain deceit, according to the elements of the world."7 Then, that he may not suppose that all philosophers are such as do this, he hears the same apostle say concerning certain of them, "Because that which is known of God is manifest among them, for God has manifested it to them. For His invisible things from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things which are made, also His eternal power and Godhead."8 And, when speaking to the Athenians, after having spoken a mighty thing concerning God, which few are able to understand, "In Him we live, and move, and have our being,"9 he goes on to say, "As certain also of your own have said." He knows well, too, to be on his guard against even these philosophers in their errors. For where it has been said by him, "that God has manifested to them by those things which are made His invisible things, that they might be seen by the understanding," there it has also been said that they did not rightly worship God Himself, because they paid divine honors, which are due to Him alone, to other things also to which they ought not to have paid them,-"because, knowing God, they glorified Him not as God: neither were thankful, but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into the likeness of the image of corruptible man, and of birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things;"10 -where the apostle would have us understand him as meaning the Romans, and Greeks, and Egyptians, who gloried in the name of wisdom; but concerning this we will dispute with them afterwards. With respect, however, to that wherein they agree with us we prefer them to all others namely, concerning the one God, the author of this universe, who is not only above every body, being incorporeal, but also above all souls, being incorruptible-our principle, our light, our good. And though the Christian man, being ignorant of their writings, does not use in disputation words which he has not learned,-not calling that part of philosophy natural (which is the Latin term), or physical which is the Greek one), which treats of the investigation of nature; or that part rational, or logical, which deals with the question how truth may be discovered; or that part moral, or ethical, which concerns morals, and shows how good is to be sought, and evil to be shunned,-he is not, therefore, ignorant that it is from the one true and supremely good God that we have that nature in which we are made in the image of God, and that doctrine by which we know Him and ourselves, and that grace through which, by cleaving to Him, we are blessed. This, therefore, is the cause why we prefer these to all the others, because, whilst other philosophers have worn out their minds and powers in seeking the causes of things, and endeavoring to discover the right mode of learning and of living, these, by knowing God, have found where resides the cause by which the universe has been constituted, and the light by which truth is to be discovered, and the fountain at which felicity is to be drunk. All philosophers, then, who have had these thoughts concerning God, whether Platonists or others, agree with us. But we have thought it better to plead our cause with the Platonists, because their writings are better known. For the Greeks, whose tongue holds the highest place among the languages of the Gentiles, are loud in their praises of these writings; and the Latins, taken with their excellence, or their renown, have studied them more heartily than other writings, and, by translating them into our tongue, have given them greater celebrity and notoriety.

*Augustine references Acts 17:28

For in him we live and move and are: as some also of your own poets said: For we are also his offspring.

Catholic Commentary on Scripture*The poets/poems referenced are Cleanthes' Hymn to Zeus and the Phaenomena of Aratus.

* If St. Paul can reference and recognize the truth existing in those outside the early Church, and St. Augustine can recognize the truth in pre-Christian truths, who then can complain about the "evils of Ecumenism" which cites the objective truths observed by Christians in those outside the visible church of today.

Ecumenism is Tradition.

10 posted on 06/16/2005 3:35:33 AM PDT by bornacatholic (I am blessed to have lived under great modern Popes. Thanks be to God.)
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To: bornacatholic
Your quote from St. Augustine has nothing to do with Ecumenism.

"Ecumenism is Tradition"

Um, I don't really know what you think that means, but true Ecumenism is traditional.

"The unity of Christians cannot otherwise be obtained than by securing the return of the separated to the one true Church of Christ from which they once unhappily withdrew. To the one true Church of Christ, we say, that stands forth before all and that by the will of its Founder will remain forever the same as when He Himself established it for the salvation of all mankind." (Pope Pius XI, Mortalium Animos)

who then can complain about the "evils of Ecumenism"

No one complains about true ecumenism, and it certainly is not evil. People do rightly complain about false ecumenism, which in seeking to be PC and tolerant, is in all actuality not charitable, and therefor yes, it is evil.

11 posted on 06/16/2005 5:17:02 AM PDT by murphE (These are days when the Christian is expected to praise every creed but his own. --G.K. Chesterton)
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To: bornacatholic; murphE

"Ecumenism is Tradition"

Aside from the 1949 document from the Holy Office, and the documents of the Second Vatican Council to the present, I would be sincerely interested if you could point me to ONE official and authoritative document of the Church that even uses the word "ecumenism" prior to 1949. Ecumenical Councils, of course, were usually called General Councils, so besides that, please name ONE document and citation where the Church uses the word "ecumenism" in the same manner it is used today.

Tick... Tick... Tick...


12 posted on 06/16/2005 6:01:07 AM PDT by Mershon
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