Posted on 06/14/2005 9:27:50 AM PDT by HarleyD
Roget's first synomym for empower is enable. Your semantic wrangling aside, you still make God a respecter of persons concerning salvation, which scripture denies.
"What is it that makes one person choose Christ, and another reject Him?"
In general, I would suppose the same thing that make one person choose any path over another: their will, their priorities, etc. We can't read men's hearts, so we should probably leave that to the Lord.
In scripture, several different reasons are revealed for men believing but not choosing to accept the conditions of salvation. Among them: fear of men, desire of approval of men (John 14:42-43).
Roget's entries aside, the word empower means to give power to, or to imbue with power. Enable means to give ability to or to cause ability to be available. It is not sematic wrangling. The reason we choose to express it as "enable" is because until God regenerates the human spirit, it is UNable to choose Christ. It is not a matter of power on man's part, it is a matter of ability.
On the contrary, it is your theology which makes God the respecter of persons, because you believe that God chose whom to save based on their foreseen choosing of Him, which means that God chose those whom He saw beforehand choosing Him. His choice of them, in your theology, rests upon their choice of Him, the effect preceding the cause. Reformed theology rightly understands that God's foreknowledge of the Elect is not of their actions, but of God loving them and knowing them before they were even created. He does not choose them on any other basis but His own Good Pleasure. In other words, because it please Him to do so.
In general, I would suppose the same thing that make one person choose any path over another: their will, their priorities, etc. We can't read men's hearts, so we should probably leave that to the Lord.
Again, you are operating under the underlying assumption that man is equally able to choose or reject Christ, despite, and not taking into account, the fallen spiritual condition of man, and what that means and is comprised of. The Fall of man is of such scope that man is unable to make a God-pleasing choice, or in any way perform a morally good act, so long as he is a spiritually dead, wholly sinful and depraved being. The Fall did not make man spiritually sick, it killed him spiritually. Unless and until God regenerates a man's spirit, bringing it to spiritual life and responsiveness, man simply cannot and will not choose the Gospel, Christ, or come to saving faith in Him. He simply does not have the ability to do so, nor the desire.
In scripture, several different reasons are revealed for men believing but not choosing to accept the conditions of salvation. Among them: fear of men, desire of approval of men (John 14:42-43).
If the spirit of God is at work in his heart concerning Jesus, those concerns will not even be considered by the man. Many can make intellectual assent to what they can understand of the things of God, but intellectual assent is not saving faith.
I recommend that you read "Willing To Believe" by R. C. Sproul, for a very thorough study of the whole matter of the will, and man's ability. It's a very good study of the subject.
Your claim that God enables a person to faith outside of and before the agency of the preached word is not supported by scripture. You can find a lot of verses that say God pursuades men, but for every verse that says God does it, you can also find a verse that shows He does it through the word, the Spirit's sword.
So are you claiming Romans 9 is saying God is a respecter of persons regarding salvation? How do you reconcile that with the direct statement that He is not a respecter of persons? Peter opened his mouth and said: "In truth I perceive that God shows no partiality. But in every nation whoever fears Him and works righteousness is accepted by Him." (Acts 10:34-35)
Paul's conclusion in Romans 9 reads a lot different than yours: "What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, attained righteousness, even the righteousness which is by faith; but Israel, pursuing a law of righteousness, did not arrive at that law. Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as though it were by works."
I'll go with Paul. And Peter.
"Many are called and few are chosen" does post a problem for the Calvinist, though. It has God calling those who cannot respond; calling while willing that they not respond. When someone treats his dog that way, we call that cruel.
Then Peter opened his mouth and said: "In truth I perceive that God shows no partiality. But in every nation whoever fears Him and works righteousness is accepted by Him." (Acts 10) That's who God has chosen.
You state: "No one is prevented from believing in Him. But all belief comes from God alone. " That is typical Calvinist double-talk. No one is prevented, but God empowers just a few to believe?
"FWIW, most every Calvinist on this site once believed every word you've written. Then things changed, by His grace. "
FWIW, I've never met a Calvinist who considered himself a member of the "unempowered" class.
"If God wanted all men saved, all men would be saved."
That is 180-degrees from what the bible says. And it says it in such a straightforward manner that you have to want to not see it:
1 John 2:2 - "And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world."
1 Tim 2:3-6 - "God our Savior...wants everyone to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God and one mediator between God and man, a man, Christ Jesus, who gave Himself--a ransom for all"
Heb 2:9 - "But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, for the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, that He, by the grace of God, might taste death for everyone."
1 John 4:14 - "And we have seen and we testify that the Father has sent the Son as Savior of the world."
The Calvinist cannot prove limited atonement from scripture. All he can do is wrest the scriptures which state Jesus died for all in an attempt to make them mean He didn't die for all. "It serves men's temporal purposes to say salvation is dependent on their wise and good earthly choices."
I haven't the slightest idea what you're getting at. What possible temporal purpose could I have in saying that salvation requires my humble obedience to God's will (Heb 5:9)? I have nothing in which to boast, for without Christ's blood I stand condemned, righteously judged a sinner. It is God who must wash my sins away.
He has told me in His word how to have that happen. I read, I believe, I obey the commands. It's really quite simple.
The doctrine of limited atonement is a necessary consequence of the doctrine of unconditional election. If God chose certain individuals to be saved and then sent his son to redeem those individuals, then the blood of Christ was shed only for the chosen ones, not for all men. But what does scripture say?
If man cannot choose to do God's will, what do these passages mean?
I recommend you read John Calvin Institutes.
The Discipline of the United Methodist Church calls Calvinism a “most wholesome doctrine, and very full of comfort.” No doubt, for those who believe they are unconditionally chosen for salvation and that they cannot do anything to lose salvation is very comforting. Or is it? Consider the following quotation from John Calvin, the father of their “wholesome doctrine”:
“experience shows that the reprobate are sometimes affected in a way so similar to the elect that, even in their own judgment, there is no difference between them. Hence it is not strange that by the apostle a taste of heavenly gifts, and by Christ himself a temporary faith, is ascribed to them....Therefore, as God regenerates the elect only for ever by incorruptible seed, as the seed of life once sown in their hearts never perishes, so he effectually seals in them the grace of his adoption, that it may be sure and steadfast. But in this there is nothing to prevent an inferior operation of the Spirit from taking its course in the reprobate...When he shows himself propitious to them, it is not as if he had truly rescued them from death and taken them under his protection. He only gives them a manifestation of his present mercy. In the elect alone he implants the living root of faith so that they persevere even to the end...I deny that the reprobate ever advance so far as to penetrate to that secret revelation which Scripture reserves for the elect only...In short, as by the revolt of the first man the image of God could be effaced from his mind and soul, so there is nothing strange in his shedding some rays of grace on the reprobate, and afterwards allowing these to be extinguished.” John Calvin, Institutes
Calvin’s words are anything but “full of comfort”. Bottom line, Calvin is telling us that one can think he is saved, act like he is saved, even be the recipient of an “inferior operation of the Spirit” which dupes him into having confidence in his salvation, but in reality, this one is just as condemned to hell as he ever was! If our confidence is based on nothing more than a subjective feeling, and if the Spirit operates on some to give them a false confidence, then no one can know they are saved!
But thanks be to God who has given us an objective standard by which we can truly know we are saved. “By this we know that we know him, if we keep his commandments” (1Jn 2:3). “But whoever keeps his word, in him is the love of God perfected: by this we know that we are in him. He that says he abides in him ought to walk as he walked” (1Jn 2:5). “If you know that [God] is righteous, you know that everyone who does righteousness is born of [God]” (1Jn 2:29). “Let us not love in word only, but in deed and truth. And by this we know that we are of the truth, and shall assure our hearts before him” (1Jn 3:18-19). “We know we have passed from death to life, because we love the brethren...By this we know that we love the children of God: when we love God and keep his commandments” (1Jn 4:14; 5:2). “Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ, has not God. He that abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son” (2Jn 9).
“Calvinism...is objectionable because it posits a strange view of man - a conception untenable both because it is unbiblical per se and because it contradicts the nature of God as defined in the Scriptures. ‘God is love,’ and love must have an object. God, who ‘so loved the world’ created man in his own image for companionship (Rev 21:3), and the fulfillment of his purpose requires that man be other than the totally passive automaton predicated by Calvin’s theology. The love of God demands a response in kind, if not in degree: “We love him because he first loved us.” Plastic figures in a wax museum may be made altogether lifelike and, in our technological age, may be animated and programmed to speak, to sing and to “worship.” But in their performance there would be neither companionship nor worship for their creator. Friendship, love, worship - these predicate volition, for they must and only can be voluntary...In the context of a moral universe, in which alone love and worship can exist, angels fell and man sins. Because man can sin, he can also worship...In the circumstance of a moral universe peopled by moral beings, God now seeks men who will worship him...men who can worship because they have the faculty of choice. Men who worship God in their own free and authentic response to his grace, who love him because he first loved them, will enjoy his love and be his companions forever in the everlasting Kingdom. ‘Calvin’s exegesis, in a word, is theologically oriented,’ writes John Murray in his introduction to the Eeardmans edition of the Institutes. This is true - in a sense which Murray did not intend. The pity is that Calvin’s theology was not more precisely exegetically oriented. Instead, the Bible has been accommodated to theology.” Robert Shank, Elect In The Son, pp. 225-227
Surely, there are many “good” people who believe in “faith only” and “once saved always saved.” But these have blinded themselves to the scriptures which deny the tenets of Calvinism. Despite their moral lives, best intentions, heartfelt beliefs and good works, these have not yet come in contact with the blood of Christ in baptism for the remission of sins. Their sins have not been washed away.
Your position remains that man's acceptance of God's "offer" is required before salvation is accomplished. Unfortunately, that incorrectly gives fallen man the final yea or nay in God's most perfect gift. And a dead man cannot choose righteousness.
Scripture tells us faith in Christ is the evidence of our salvation, determined by God from before the foundation of the world, not a requirement for our salvation. Or else it is a work; something we've done correctly to earn our spot in heaven.
"But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God." -- John 1:12-13.
Wrong. Belief comes after the word.
Like this: word => faith => baptism => new birth
WORD BEFORE FAITH
Rom 10:17 - "So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ."
WORD BEFORE NEW BIRTH
1 Pet 1:23 - "for you have been born again not of seed which is perishable but imperishable, that is, through the living and enduring word of God."
James 1:18 - "By His own choice, He gave us a new birth by the message of truth so that we would be the firstfruits of His creatures."
BAPTISM BEFORE NEW BIRTH
Rom 10:17 - "Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death? Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life."
You have no scriptural evidence that the new birth preceeds faith. I have given several passages here that prove the new birth is a result of faith in the word.
This proves the fallicy of the Calvinist's argument that faithful obedience is earning salvation.
"Plastic figures in a wax museum may be made altogether lifelike and, in our technological age, may be animated and programmed to speak, to sing and to “worship.” But in their performance there would be neither companionship nor worship for their creator. Friendship, love, worship - these predicate volition, for they must and only can be voluntary...In the context of a moral universe, in which alone love and worship can exist, angels fell and man sins. Because man can sin, he can also worship...In the circumstance of a moral universe peopled by moral beings, God now seeks men who will worship him...men who can worship because they have the faculty of choice. Men who worship God in their own free and authentic response to his grace, who love him because he first loved them, will enjoy his love and be his companions forever in the everlasting Kingdom." Robert Shank, Elect In The Son, pp. 225-227
Saved by God's grace through faith.
Men will always claim for themselves what is of God alone. Same as it ever was.
Baptism is a sign of our regeneration; not a requirement for it. Nothing is required for our salvation but the determinant good pleasure of God, ordained by Him from before the foundation of the world.
And that's a good thing.
But I'm sure you're thinking about answering later. In the meantime, here's my response to your post.
"Saved by God's grace through faith."
I agree.
"Baptism is a sign of our regeneration; not a requirement for it. Nothing is required for our salvation but the determinant good pleasure of God, ordained by Him from before the foundation of the world."
Please provide scripture that states this.
Paul taught differently.
"Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death? Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life." - Rom 6
Ananias taught differently.
"Now why do you delay? Get up and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on His name." - Acts 22
Peter taught differently.
"Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins." - Acts 2
"Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you--not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience--through the resurrection of Jesus Christ." 1Pet 3
The bible teaches a lot of things about baptism you deny. It does not teach that baptism is a sign of a regeneration that's already occurred.
I look forward to see how you handle the truths in my previous post regarding the passages showing the order of hearing, believing, baptism, new birth; and this post regarding the passages showing what baptism is.
But nearly a dozen Calvinists have been banned, so we've learned to resist the impulse. Lucky you.
I ignored nothing. We obviously disagree about the order and reason for salvation. My position, the same position articulated by Paul and Martin Luther and John Calvin and Augustine, the very reason for the Reformation itself, remains that man must first be born of the Holy Spirit before he is able to do anything God-pleasing, most especially believe in His Son. This fact is clearly articulated in John 1:12-13:
"But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God."
Born of the Spirit, not by temporal heritage nor human will. Just like we had nothing to do with our first earthly birth, so, too, we have nothing to do with our second birth. Salvation is of the Lord, according to His plan for His creation from before the foundation of the world. Our job is to be grateful and obey, all for His glory.
When you speak of Romans 10:17 -- "So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ" -- I think you are misreading the verse if you presume it supports your contention. We hear with ears given to us by God. Fallen men, dead in sin, cannot choose righteousness unless and until God regenerates his heart.
As far as baptism goes, God does not require an initiation ceremony for His sheep. No pledges required for admittance. No vows to maintain for our adoption. No secret handshakes. Just the determinant decree of God to save whom He will, according to His mercy through faith in Jesus Christ. All who come to Him in faith will be saved; none is turned away. But all who come are already His, as He promised:
My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand." -- John 10:26-29"But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
I prefer the KJV. Let's see what Paul is discussing...
Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection" -- Romans 6:3-5"Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
Please read the following link by Rev. Robert C. Harbach; it speaks to your misreading:
"Paul is certainly not here taking up the matter of water baptism, a thought which loses sight of the real meaning of the passage. Here the subject is, The Objective Incorporation of the Entire Church into Christ, in His crucifixion, death, burial and resurrection. The whole elect church is viewed in its identification with Christ crucified, dead, buried and risen. They all were baptized in Christ Jesus. It was a baptism in His death. It is as plain as can be that His death was a baptism of blood. (Cp. Mt. 20:22-23; Mk. 19:38-39; Lk. 12:50 with Lk. 22:20). When He died, we were incorporated, identified with Him, so that the once-for-all settled fact of the matter is, "We died! We were buried." (Notice the tense of the verbs.) When this took place is perfectly clear. We died with Him on the Cross. We were united together with Him in all His redemptive acts. Our position, then, is one of identification with Christ. We were, then, positionally buried together with Him through the baptism, that is, the true, historical baptism, of which water baptism is the sign. It is all an accomplished fact for the church through the baptism (there is only the one baptism) in the death (there is only the one atoning death). So then, Paul wrote here not of individual water baptism, nor even of regeneration, but corporately of the Baptism in the Death. The object of Paul's words is not to show that Christians ought to walk in newness of life because figuratively raised from a watery grave in a symbolic ritual, but because spiritually, objectively, historically, unitedly, corporately and representatively raised from the grave through the death. There is nothing of mode here, either, and to introduce it is to weaken the idea of our corporate identity with Christ, central and uppermost in the passage. We were buried with Him through the Baptism in the Death. Peter describes that baptism when he speaks of it as "the sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ" (I Pet. 1:2) and the pouring out of His Spirit (Acts 2:17-18). Baptism is a symbol, not of death, but, of LIFE."
And this...
~~"THE CONFESSION OF FAITH; AGREED UPON BY THE ASSEMBLY OF DIVINES AT WESTMINSTER, WITH THE ASSISTANCE OF COMMISSIONERS FROM THE CHURCH OF SCOTLAND, AS A PART OF THE COVENANTED UNIFORMITY IN RELIGION BETWIXT THE CHURCHES OF CHRIST IN THE KINGDOMS OF SCOTLAND, ENGLAND, AND IRELAND.
AND
APPROVED BY THE GENERAL ASSEMBLY 1647, AND RATIFIED AND ESTABLISHED BY ACTS OF PARLIAMENT 1649 AND 1690, AS THE PUBLICK AND AVOWED CONFESSION OF THE CHURCH OF SCOTLAND, WITH THE PROOFS FROM THE SCRIPTURE.
Chapter XXVIII
Of Baptism
I. Baptism is a sacrament of the New Testament, ordained by Jesus Christ,[1] not only for the solemn admission of the party baptized into the visible Church;[2] but also to be unto him a sign and seal of the covenant of grace,[3] of his ingrafting into Christ,[4] of regeneration,[5] of remission of sins,[6] and of his giving up unto God, through Jesus Christ, to walk in the newness of life.[7] Which sacrament is, by Christ's own appointment, to be continued in His Church until the end of the world.[8]
II. The outward element to be used in this sacrament is water, wherewith the party is to be baptized, in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, by a minister of the Gospel, lawfully called thereunto.[9]
III. Dipping of the person into the water is not necessary; but Baptism is rightly administered by pouring, or sprinkling water upon the person.[10]
IV. Not only those that do actually profess faith in and obedience unto Christ,[11] but also the infants of one, or both, believing parents, are to be baptized.[12]
V. Although it is a great sin to contemn or neglect this ordinance,[13] yet grace and salvation are not so inseparably annexed unto it, as that no person can be regenerated, or saved, without it:[14] or, that all that are baptized are undoubtedly regenerated.[15]
VI. The efficacy of Baptism is not tied to that moment of time wherein it is administered;[16] yet, notwithstanding, by the right use of this ordinance, the grace promised is not only offered, but really exhibited, and conferred, by the Holy Ghost, to such (whether of age or infants) as that grace belongs unto, according to the counsel of God's own will, in His appointed time.[17]
VII. The sacrament of Baptism is but once to be administered unto any person.[18]"
REFERENCES:
[1] MAT 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.
[2] 1CO 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
[3] ROM 4:11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also. COL 2:11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: 12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
[4] GAL 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. ROM 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection.
[5] TIT 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost.
[6] MAR 1:4 John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.
[7] ROM 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? 4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
[8] MAT 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.
[9] MAT 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire. JOH 1:33 And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost. MAT 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: 20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.
[10] HEB 9:10 Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation. 19 For when Moses had spoken every precept to all the people according to the law, he took the blood of calves and of goats, with water, and scarlet wool, and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book, and all the people, 20 Saying, This is the blood of the testament which God hath enjoined unto you. 21 Moreover he sprinkled with blood both the tabernacle, and all the vessels of the ministry. 22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission. ACT 2:41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls. 16:33 And he took them the same hour of the night, and washed their stripes; and was baptized, he and all his, straightway. MAR 7:4 And when they come from the market, except they wash, they eat not. And many other things there be, which they have received to hold, as the washing of cups, and pots, brasen vessels, and of tables.
[11] MAR 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. 16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. ACT 8:37 And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. 38 And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him.
[12] GEN 17:7 And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee. 9 And God said unto Abraham, Thou shalt keep my covenant therefore, thou, and thy seed after thee in their generations. GAL 3:9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham. 14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith. COL 2:11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: 12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. ACT 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. 39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call. ROM 4:11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also: 12 And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised. 1CO 7:14 For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband: else were your children unclean; but now are they holy. MAT 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. MAR 10:13 And they brought young children to him, that he should touch them: and his disciples rebuked those that brought them. 14 But when Jesus saw it, he was much displeased, and said unto them, Suffer the little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God. 15 Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child, he shall not enter therein. 16 And he took them up in his arms, put his hands upon them, and blessed them. LUK 18:15 And they brought unto him also infants, that he would touch them: but when his disciples saw it, they rebuked them.
[13] LUK 7:30 But the Pharisees and lawyers rejected the counsel of God against themselves, being not baptized of him. EXO 4:24 And it came to pass by the way in the inn, that the Lord met him, and sought to kill him. 25 Then Zipporah took a sharp stone, and cut off the foreskin of her son, and cast it at his feet, and said, Surely a bloody husband art thou to me. 26 So he let him go: then she said, A bloody husband thou art, because of the circumcision.
[14] ROM 4:11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also. ACT 10:2 A devout man, and one that feared God with all his house, which gave much alms to the people, and prayed to God alway. 4 And when he looked on him, he was afraid, and said, What is it, Lord? And he said unto him, Thy prayers and thine alms are come up for a memorial before God. 22 And they said, Cornelius the centurion, a just man, and one that feareth God, and of good report among all the nation of the Jews, was warned from God by an holy angel to send for thee into his house, and to hear words of thee. 31 And said, Cornelius, thy prayer is heard, and thine alms are had in remembrance in the sight of God. 45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost. 47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
[15] ACT 8:13 Then Simon himself believed also: and when he was baptized, he continued with Philip, and wondered, beholding the miracles and signs which were done. 23 For I perceive that thou art in the gall of bitterness, and in the bond of iniquity.
[16] JOH 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. 8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
[17] GAL 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. TIT 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; EPH 5:25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; 26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word. ACT 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. 41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.
[18] TITUS 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost."~~
And what of the Thief on the Cross, whom Jesus told would be with Him that day in Paradise? The Thief wasn't baptized, so according to you, Jesus must have lied to him.
Is baptism total immersion? Or any form of sprinkling or dipping?
The fact of the matter is, you insist on seeing references to "all" as always meaning "all without exception". Earlier in this very thread, it was shown that 1 John 2:2 indicated that Jesus was Himself the propitiation, meaning that any who would have their sins forgiven must come to Him, because it can be found in no other. The passage does not teach that Jesus paid for the sins of the whole world, but that the whole world can only find forgiveness for sins in Him. That does not address whether the whole world CAN in fact do so. It is a statement of fact about Christ, not an indication of who it applies to.
I always look forward to reading your posts, especially when you handle the truth from scripture and you never disappoint me. God bless you.
Baptismal regeneration is your term, so you'll have to do some more defining before I can answer directly. I do believe this about baptism:
Is baptism in the Name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, or in the name of Jesus?
Since in the name of means by the authority of (like "stop in the name of the law"), I'm not convinced that there is a difference. What is of Jesus is of the Father/Son/Holy Spirit. Matt 28 says to baptize "in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit", Acts 8:16 says the Samaritans were "baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus." Same thing, from what I can tell.
And what of the Thief on the Cross, whom Jesus told would be with Him that day in Paradise? The Thief wasn't baptized, so according to you, Jesus must have lied to him.
The thief died under the old covenant, under which baptism for the remission of sins was not commanded. Jesus did not lie to the thief.
Is baptism total immersion? Or any form of sprinkling or dipping?
The English word baptize is a transliteration of a word which meant to immerse. NT examples show people going down into the water to be baptized. The evidence indicates the baptism of the NT is immersion.
[1 John 2:2] does not teach that Jesus paid for the sins of the whole world, but that the whole world can only find forgiveness for sins in Him. That does not address whether the whole world CAN in fact do so.
Your cans are clanking. In your first sentence you say 1John 2:2 teaches "that the whole world can only find forgiveness for sins in Him." Then your second sentence denies your first. Nothwithstanding that...
1John 2:2 teaches the same thing as 1Tim 2:6: "For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave Himself as a ransom for all."
Let's read 1John 2:2 again: "He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world." Jesus's blood is efficacious for the remission of the sins of the whole world.
So, will all be saved? No, because not all are willing to meet the conditions for salvation set forth by God: "He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned." - Mk 16:16
an act of obedience - Agreed. It is an act of obedience for the remission of sins (Acts 2:38).
signifying the new life in Christ of the believer - Scripture, please.
It is not a work, for only the work of Christ is what saves one. - Agreed that it is not a salvation-earning work. It is a faith-showing work, though. You call baptism an act above. Please help me distinguish between work and act. Is believing a work?
When the people in Acts 2:37 asked, "What shall we do?" what answer did they receive?
Choosing to be baptized, is showing publicly that one is in agreement with Jesus Christ. - Agreed. It also puts one into Christ (Gal 3:27).
Certainly. Romans 6:3- 6 we find the full meaning of baptism. "Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life, For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin."
It's a symbol of Christ's death, burial, and resurrection to a new life. The same happens to us in a spiritual sense. Baptism is a symbol that the old life of sin and guilt dies, and is buried, and the new life is born again. In baptism the eyes are closed, hands folded, and the breath is suspended for a moment while one is lowered gently below the water, then brought up again. A perfect illustration of death, burial and resurrection to new life!
Is believing a work?
Yes, John 6:29
Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
You agree that belief is a work and cite Jesus' statement in John 6. Baptism is also a work in the same sense. Not a work of man in an attempt to earn salvation, but a work of God, commanded as a condition of salvation.
This distinction is important and explains the seeming contradiction of the following two statements:
"Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up Isaac his son on the altar?" - James 2:21
"For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God." - Rom 4:2
Two different kinds of works are under consideration in James and Romans. Romans is talking about people trying to earn their salvation apart from Christ's sacrifice. James is talking about people believing in Christ and being obedient to his commands. As Jesus said, "If you love me, you will keep my commandments."
All I'm trying to communicate in my posts are these simple, scriptural truths:
Why anyone would refuse to believe and obey this is a mystery to me. The believing heart would respond like those on Pentecost: "So then, those who had received his word were baptized; and that day there were added about three thousand souls."
If you truly understood what and why baptism signifies what has happened to us in Christ, you would realize that the actual act is secondary to what has already happened spiritually to the believer.
Since in the name of means by the authority of (like "stop in the name of the law"), I'm not convinced that there is a difference. What is of Jesus is of the Father/Son/Holy Spirit. Matt 28 says to baptize "in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit", Acts 8:16 says the Samaritans were "baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus." Same thing, from what I can tell.
You're dancing around the question. Some people insist that baptism MUST be in the Name of Jesus, saying that the Name of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost is Jesus. They usually are the "Oneness" crowd. Oneness (Jesus Only) is heresy.
The thief died under the old covenant, under which baptism for the remission of sins was not commanded. Jesus did not lie to the thief.
On the contrary, baptism is not what remits sin, BLOOD is the agency through which sin is remitted. "Without the shedding of blood, there is no remission" Hebrews 9:19-26. It is the Blood of Christ which washes away our sins, which paid for our sins, and the way our sins are remitted. Baptism is a public identification of spiritual union with Christ, signifying that we are united with Him not only in Life, but also in His Death, Burial, and Resurrection.
The English word baptize is a transliteration of a word which meant to immerse. NT examples show people going down into the water to be baptized. The evidence indicates the baptism of the NT is immersion.
Personally, I agree with you on this point.
Your cans are clanking. In your first sentence you say 1John 2:2 teaches "that the whole world can only find forgiveness for sins in Him." Then your second sentence denies your first.
No, you just need to realize that my grammar was not as precise as I was attempting to be. Let me try it again:
[1 John 2:2] does not teach that Jesus paid for the sins of the whole world, but that the whole world can only find forgiveness for sins in Him. That does not address whether the whole world has the ability to, in fact, do so.
To put it another way, the verse does not say that Jesus propitiated the sins of the whole world, but rather that He IS the propitiation itself, and the whole world can only find forgiveness in Him. That does not in any way imply that the whole world WILL, or POSSESSES THE ABILITY, to come to Him that their sins may be forgiven.
Nothwithstanding that... 1John 2:2 teaches the same thing as 1Tim 2:6: "For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave Himself as a ransom for all."
Actually, the two verses are speaking of different things, a different emphasis. God has not decreed that all men be saved, or all WOULD be saved. This is a statement of His benevolence toward all men, and a statement that Christ's atonement is sufficient to the saving of all men. Again, it does not address the ability of all men to be saved. It is demonstrable from scripture that men cannot, of their own will, choose Christ, and in fact have no desire to do so.
Let's read 1John 2:2 again: "He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world." Jesus's blood is efficacious for the remission of the sins of the whole world.
Christ's Blood is certainly of infinite value, and as such is more than sufficient to the saving of every man without exception. We have no disagreement there. The EFFICACY of the Blood of Christ, however, is not the same as the sufficiency. It is only efficacious for those who believe on Him. Their ability to do so (or lack of ability) is another subject.
Read it again. He Himself IS THE PROPITIATION. That is a noun, not a verb. Sins are forgiven ONLY through Him. That is what that means. It is a statement of fact, not a statement of intent, which is how you're reading it. You need to read the words for what they actually say, not what you think or wish or believe they say.
And you would be wrong. By this statement, you DO believe in baptismal regeneration, showing that you were dissimulating when I asked you point-blank that very question, and you called it "my term". You knew what I meant, you just didn't want to answer a direct question with a direct answer.
Why anyone would refuse to believe and obey this is a mystery to me. The believing heart would respond like those on Pentecost: "So then, those who had received his word were baptized; and that day there were added about three thousand souls."
No Christian that I know of would have any desire to NOT be baptized. The error here is your insistence that one is not saved UNTIL they are baptized. In Acts 2, theor baptism was not UNTO slavation, but BECAUSE OF salvation.
The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ: (1Pe 3:21)
One can only have a good conscience toward God if one is ALREADY saved. That is why baptism is the outward sign of an already settled inward fact. Peter says baptism now saves us by the resurrection of Jesus Christ. What does baptism signify? As Jesus died, was buried and rose again, so we, joined with Christ in spirit, died, were buried, and rose again WITH HIM. It is our union with Christ in His death, burial, and resurrection which is signified by immersion in the waters of baptism, baptism being a type of the reality, which is Christ.
On the contrary, if you would read what scripture says about baptism, you would truly understand what baptism is.
Scripture NEVER says baptism signifies something that has already occurred. In fact, scripture says baptism puts one into Christ (Gal 3) and that the Christian's new life begins after one has been buried with Christ through baptism. Ananias told Saul to be baptized to "wash away your sins." Peter told the Jews to be baptised for the remission of sins.
All of these things (new life, into Christ, forgiveness of sins) you say happen before baptism, but scripture says they happen at baptism. Your argument isn't with me, but it is with Paul, Peter and Ananias.
You're dancing around the question. Some people insist that baptism MUST be in the Name of Jesus, saying that the Name of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost is Jesus. They usually are the "Oneness" crowd. Oneness (Jesus Only) is heresy.
My answer was not an attempt to avoid answering. I am unfamiliar with "Oneness" doctrine. As you describe it, I do not hold to such. I do not see any oral baptismal formula given in scripture. When some read "in the name of" they do see a formula to be recited - I do not. Again, since the Son, Father and H.S. are perfectly united, what is done by the authority of the Son is done by the authority of all of the Godhead.
On the contrary, baptism is not what remits sin, BLOOD is the agency through which sin is remitted.
The blood of Christ remits sins. Whether you like it or not, scripture says baptism is how the alien sinner comes in contact with that blood. (1Pet 3:21; Acts 2:38; Rom 6:3-4; Gal 3:27; Col 2:12; Mark 16:16)
Christ's Blood is certainly of infinite value, and as such is more than sufficient to the saving of every man without exception. We have no disagreement there. The EFFICACY of the Blood of Christ, however, is not the same as the sufficiency. It is only efficacious for those who believe on Him. Their ability to do so (or lack of ability) is another subject.
Agreed. Christ died for all, not all take advantage of the gift, and for those who do not, Christ's death is of no positive effect.
I thought you were affirming Calvinistic view of the atonement:
“The love exhibited on Calvary is itself a distinguishing love and not a love which is indiscriminately universal. It is a love that insures the eternal security of those who are its objects...the atonement which Calvary accomplished is not itself universal.” John Murray, Redemption - Accomplished and Applied, p. 79
“[Christ’s redeeming work] was intended to render complete satisfaction for certain specified sinners.” Steele and Thomas, The Five Points of Calvinism, pp. 38, 39
The following verses disagree with the above statements:
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