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To: Kolokotronis; Agrarian; gbcdoj
Rome teaches that we are born in a state of "mortal sin"?

The "state of mortal sin" is the state of being at enmity with God and deprived of his grace, justice and holiness.

The alternate position to this is to be in the state of grace, justice and holiness.

This is why we have both continued to ask very simply (as yet receiving confusing replies), do you believe newborn infants come into the world in a state of grace or a state of sin?

Either a person is a friend of God, and in His grace, or an enemy of God, and apart from His grace. Which is it for the newborn infant?

126 posted on 06/13/2005 8:55:13 PM PDT by Hermann the Cherusker
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To: Hermann the Cherusker; Kolokotronis
Either a person is a friend of God, and in His grace, or an enemy of God, and apart from His grace. Which is it for the newborn infant?

An infant is born into the world sick in both soul and body, desperately needing a physician. How do *you* suppose that Christ is going to look at that child: as an enemy or a friend? Or would the distinction or classification be a meaningless one to Christ?

The point:

Children come into the world devoid of grace, justice, and the life of God.

Yes or no.

As with so many things, this is a question I can't imagine being asked within our phronema, and I'm frankly unable and unwilling to answer it. This is a typical dialectal Catholic question (or Protestant -- they got it from you guys.)

Predictably, I will quote to you from the prayers appointed to be said for mother and child by the priest shortly after a child is born -- the infant is unbaptized at this point:

Preserve her and this child which she hath borne.

O Master, Lord our God, who wast born of our all-pure Lady, the Theotokos, and ever virgin Mary, and as a babe didst lie in a manger, and as a little child wast held in arms: Show mercy also upon this thy servant, who today hath borne this child; and forgive her sins, both voluntary and involuntary; and perserve her from every oppression of the Devil; and preserve the child which hath been born of her from every spell and perplexity, from every storn of adversity, and from evil spirits, whether of the day or of the night.

...have mercy upon her and upon the child, according to thy great mercy...

And grant that the child that hath been born of her may do reverence to the earthly temple which thou hast prepared to glorify thy holy Name.

Your turn: enemy or friend? Or more to the point, object of wrath, or object or love and compassion? Is the child treated as someone who is in a "state of being at enmity with God and deprived of his grace, justice and holiness?" Or again are all of these questions and distinctions irrelevant?

139 posted on 06/14/2005 5:45:56 AM PDT by Agrarian
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