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To: Kolokotronis
I don't see how that differs. The Catechism has already explained what it means by guilt: "It is not unjust to punish us for the sin of our first parents, because their punishment consisted in being deprived of a free gift of God; that is, of the gift of original justice to which they had no strict right and which they willfully forfeited by their act of disobedience."

Now, since St. John says that baptism adds to the infants holiness and justice, isn't that the same thing as saying that they don't have it?

107 posted on 06/13/2005 5:35:13 PM PDT by gbcdoj (For if thou wilt now hold thy peace, the Jews shall be delivered by some other occasion)
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To: gbcdoj; Agrarian; Tantumergo; sionnsar

"Now, since St. John says that baptism adds to the infants holiness and justice, isn't that the same thing as saying that they don't have it?"

Not at all, as any Orthodox Christian will tell you. The sacrament of Baptism has for us absolutely nothing to do with any concept of punishment or guilt for the sin of Adam and Eve being visited on us. The Fathers teach that prior to the Fall sin did not exist in the world and Adam and Eve were in a state of potential theosis. After the Fall, sin entered the world and the entire Creation is burdened and distorted by it especially including us. The Sacrament of Baptism gives us the blessings +John Chrysostomos writes of and opens to us the possibility of theosis in spite of that distortion in our nature and the creation we live in, that Adam and Eve originally possessed without the distortion caused by sin and sin upon sin.

I think I've said it before, almost certainly to Tantumergo our resident deacon and I think to Sionnsar the Anglican, but I say again, that many, perhaps even the overwhelming majority, of theological differences between the Church in the West and the Church in the East come down to this issue over ancestral sin. We honestly are not saying the same thing at all.


109 posted on 06/13/2005 5:52:11 PM PDT by Kolokotronis (Christ is Risen, and you, o death, are annihilated!)
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