Only 1 in 11 Christians Has a Biblical Worldview

Chalcedon Foundation ^ | 6/7/05 | Lee Duigon

[Rytwyng]

You bring up the pederasty thing, as if that is an argument against the Truth of the Catholic Faith

I did NO SUCH THING. I mentioned it SOLELY in the context of (a) a discussion of my CONTEMPLATING a return to the RC church, and (b) being dismayed at the fact that my tithes, or some portion of them, would them be going to finance the pederasty settlements.

Please READ posts, and the posts leading up to them, before condemning them.

I am well aware that Protestants have homosexuals too. We had to boot one from youth group; he fled the country to avoid arrest.

[jo kus]

Thanks for your courteous reply.

Yes, I think we agree on the issue. I just wanted to emphasize that prayer is what we should focus on. I just finished reading St. Bonaventure's "Life of St. Francis".
Here is what Francis has to say on the issue (which is why I brought it up, as I had been reading it while seeing your post!)

"Once the friars asked Francis whether he was pleased that the learned men who had by that time been received into the Order should devote themselves to the study of Sacred Scripture. He replied "I am indeed pleased, as long as they do not neglect application to prayer, after the example of Christ, of whom we read that He prayed more than he read, and as long as they study not only in order to know what they should say but in order to practice what they have heard and when they have put it into practice themselves to propose it to others likewise." (Para 1, Chapter 11)

I think one could multiply such quotes numerous times, regarding the saints, those who have through their lives, most readily put on Christ. It would be most difficult to find someone who emulated Christ more than Francis did, to include receiving the stigmata - a true sign to others that he had indeed become "another Christ".

Regards

[jo kus]

"Does TODAY's 'traditions' equal the 'traditions' that the Thessalonians were taught?"

It depends.

Some are and some are not. Catholics themselves are clear on this, that there are Apostolic Traditions that we call "dogma" - unchanging. There are other "doctrines" that can change. An example of the former is the definitions of the Triune God made at Nicea and Chalcedon. An example of the latter would be the rosary devotions or priestly vestments.

Regards

[jo kus]

"he is desirous of giving them something that will put them in "rememberance" always of what he has taught them."

Perhaps you are correct. However, it might be anachronistic to assume that Peter is speaking of writing, as if the people of the time could not remember things passed down orally. The people of this era were able to pass down Scripture itself orally (as well as long epics like the Iliad). We live in different times.

Regards

[Blessed]

>However, it might be anachronistic to assume that Peter is speaking of writing, as if the people of the time could not remember things passed down orally. The people of this era were able to pass down Scripture itself orally (as well as long epics like the Iliad). We live in different times. <

Yes an oral tradition was important but they were memorizing scripture that had been written down.Their are more copies of early scripture available today than of any other work from the same period.

The words it is written are used 90 times in the NT.I believe God was not just using the Apostles for a season.He was having them transcribe his words with the aid of the Holy Spirit so that we would have them today.

[Elsie]

Sister Lucia of Fatima pray for us

Psst...

She's DEAD!

[Elsie]

What is the matter you never heard of delegating authority?

 

 

NIV Matthew 16:13-23

 

When Jesus came to the region of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, "Who do people say the Son of Man is?" 

 

They replied, "Some say John the Baptist; others say Elijah; and still others, Jeremiah or one of the prophets."  

 

"But what about you?" he asked. "Who do you say I am?" 

Simon Peter answered, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God." 

Jesus replied, "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven.  And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it. 

I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be  bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven." 

Then he warned his disciples not to tell anyone that he was the Christ. 

From that time on Jesus began to explain to his disciples that he must go to Jerusalem and suffer many things at the hands of the elders, chief priests and teachers of the law, and that he must be killed and on the third day be raised to life.

 

Peter took him aside and began to rebuke him. "Never, Lord!" he said. "This shall never happen to you!" 

 Jesus turned and said to Peter, "Get behind me, Satan! You are a stumbling block to me; you do not have in mind the things of God, but the things of men."

---

 

Since there is no 'real' key; but merely a 'virtual' one (or set: the Scripture says, "KEYS") what shall we make of the fact that Jesus was talking to ALL the disciples here; and impetuous PETER jumps in with an answer, the question becomes:

 

"To whom is the

you spoken about refer?"

 

Is it ONLY to Peter; or is it to ALL of them?

[Elsie]

It certainly wouldn't be communicated by writing, ....

This must REALLY come as a surprise to the Jews!!

---

If your ORAL 'tradition is NOT 'written down', then it is VERY capable of being corrupted, just as the OT writings prove.

[Elsie]

My ex-wife didn't.........

:-(

[Elsie]

We are not in bondage to these sort of man-made obligations that you Protestants are.

You're not still selling indulgences; are you????

[Elsie]

Sigh... Big sigh...

Again, read my lips. I'm not interested in exchanging Bible verses. Sacred Scripture is not self interpreting, and as a non-Catholic, I recognize your authority as zero regarding your interpretation of Sacred Scripture.

So it's still:

Our way or the highway; huh?

[Elsie]

HELLO......

Mary is DEAD!

[Elsie]

Silly statements???


I didn't WRITE what was posted; merely emphasised the parts that some poeple have ignored for centuries.

[DannyTN]

"But when are we FULLY saved???"

The moment you put your trust in Jesus. At that moment, your past, present and future sins are covered by Jesus's offering on the cross. The struggle against sin and to be transformed into the image of Jesus continues but those sins have been forgiven.

Hebrews 10:14 - For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

[Rytwyng]

In defense of the Catholics, they have an old church tradition that Joseph was an old widower who had children by his first marriage -- and these are the "brothers and sisters" of Christ.

Can't prove it (or disprove it) by scripture, but that interpretation makes more sense than imagining a healthy young man abstaining all his life (unless you believe the tale of the midwife's hand withering when she touched Mary's private parts, in which case Joseph's abstinence would make perfect sense!)

[Mark in the Old South]

I have never been impressed with cut and paste Bibles.

Issac was told to flee his brother by his mother who feared for his safety. She sent him to her brother. But the young man referred to his uncle as his "Brother" when they met.

Abraham called his nephew Lot his "Brother" but in another place the proper relationship is well defined.

There are lots of examples but the Bible has to be taken as a whole and much of it needs educated people to help with the cultural and spiritually difficult parts. Of course that takes all the fun out of it for the cut and paste crowd. A full understanding prevents a "personal interpretation" that permits gay marriage, multiple wives, and a whole host of other sins that can be twisted but the cutting and pasting the parts one likes.

What you folks do to the Bible is like rebuilding a car engine and having a lot of loose parts when done. It does not instill confidence in me.

[Mark in the Old South]

Re: "Sister Lucia of Fatima pray for us Psst...She's DEAD!"

Yes she is and she can see you right now.

[jo kus]

"I believe God was not just using the Apostles for a season.He was having them transcribe his words with the aid of the Holy Spirit so that we would have them today."

I think the Apostles' purpose was much more than mere secretaries of God! If you will recall, the Apostles didn't start writing for AT LEAST ten years after Christ had risen from the dead. What were they doing in the mean time? Also, you are overemphasizing the value of the written word to the individual during early Christianity. Everyone didn't have access to a Bible (or could read it if they were so inclined to purchase one!)

To say that we come to faith by reading the Scriptures is to totally ignore much of Scripture itself, that lays out how the Apostles taught people throughout the Empire that Christ had risen - by word of mouth and deeds, not by pamphlets handed out.

Regards

[Agrarian]

In order to translate this into "Orthodox", it is useful to think of the statements in the negative. So, the first would be, "Do you agree that there is no such thing as absolute moral truth?" The third would be "Do you agree that Jesus sinned during his earthly life?" The 4th would be "Do you agree that God is not all-powerful, all-knowing, not the Creator of the universe, and that he has no power over creation today?" Etc.

Framed in this way, I think that Orthodox Christians would, if they had to choose a yes or no (rather than go into a discourse on what they think and what the real questions should have been), be more likely to agree than to disagree with most or all of the statements listed.

I speak "evangelical" well enough to know the basic gist of what each of these questions are getting at, in terms of a world-view. I think that if someone spent enough time talking to devout Orthodox Christians about how they see the world and how they live, the originators would come to the conclusion that we have a profoundly Christian world-view, even though we would articulate it using "Orthodox" rather than using "Evangelical Protestant."

Many, if not most, converts to Orthodoxy in America are from conservative Protestant and evangelical traditions. If anything, I think that most would say that their "worldview" has gotten more radically Christian and countercultural (i.e. opposed to the spirit of the age) than it ever was in their strictest evangelical days.